tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-62758043740197322132024-03-17T20:03:32.805-07:00Book of Mormon settingBOOK OF MORMON SETTING.
Many Latter-day Saints still believe what the prophets have taught about the New York Cumorah. President Nelson: "Good inspiration is based upon good information." Here, we share good information from original sources that corroborates the prophets.
We support Church policy of neutrality. That policy promotes unity by recognizing multiple working hypotheses. We encourage all interested parties to do the same.jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.comBlogger1594125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-50502133819071235812024-03-15T10:23:00.000-07:002024-03-15T10:23:11.848-07:00Scripture Central: aspiration vs reality<p>This is a legacy post that I never published, but it seems relevant now. I write this in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding. Clarity is first because without clarity, understanding is impossible. And we emphasize charity in the sense of giving everyone the benefit of the doubt and assuming people act in good faith, as they define it. But sometimes people evade clarity for what they think are good reasons.</p><p>_____</p><p>I've done several podcast interviews recently on a variety of topics. Many people have commented that they never heard this information or these interpretations before and they wonder why.</p><p>The basic answer is that the dominant LDS academic and media organizations have created a thick bubble of intellectual groupthink that is impervious to alternative faithful interpretations, to the point where they don't even want Latter-day Saints outside the bubble to know the relevant facts and interpretations.</p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh1M-HJ16HqMCnCn-BkGu0EQmKEljkkl3w7QLwzWhEm0Agri5YhY5yqJKjV4bRI3uKf6ZHUsS_WQ4sCC9WhBOqgwgjlSls0wXMk1qcXxAWABxWvcMZEQNdnoeAw698Z_ZFxNKudDZOBEChjif76Fm80W58vlVqAaDd2JEkCn8NpjLO6OVvHW5QK4x2i5JY/s1024/People%20in%20bubble%20Mayan%20ladders.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh1M-HJ16HqMCnCn-BkGu0EQmKEljkkl3w7QLwzWhEm0Agri5YhY5yqJKjV4bRI3uKf6ZHUsS_WQ4sCC9WhBOqgwgjlSls0wXMk1qcXxAWABxWvcMZEQNdnoeAw698Z_ZFxNKudDZOBEChjif76Fm80W58vlVqAaDd2JEkCn8NpjLO6OVvHW5QK4x2i5JY/s320/People%20in%20bubble%20Mayan%20ladders.png" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">M2C bubble</td></tr></tbody></table><br /></p><p>Fortunately, the Internet makes it impossible for academics to control information the way they once did. This is why Latter-day Saints around the world are learning about aspects of Church history and extrinsic evidence that corroborates what the prophets have said about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. </p><p>We would think that academics would encourage open inquiry and truth seeking that would encourage and foster examination of alternatives, but that's not the case among certain LDS academics who, thanks to their positions of trust and influence at BYU and the Church History Department, have the resources to promote their own theories of M2C and SITH. </p><p>[M2C=Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory; SITH=stone-in-the-hat theory.]</p><p>_____</p><p>Today let's discuss Scripture Central for a moment.</p><p>Scripture Central, including Book of Mormon Central, publishes lots of great stuff. They spend millions of dollars producing content intended to build faith and knowledge among Latter-day Saints and other interested people.</p><p>However, their editorial policy of promoting M2C and SITH exclusively leads them to contradict basic principle of truth-seeking. </p><p>Scripture Central has no room for thousands of faithful Latter-day Saints around the world who disagree with the editorial board's views on the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. Those of us who still believe what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon are excluded from the conversations at Scripture Central. Our views are censored and mischaracterized. </p><p>Years ago, the co-founder of Scripture Central, John W. (Jack) Welch, wrote an outstanding article on the role of evidence in religious discussion.</p><p>Unfortunately, Scripture Central does not live up to the aspirations he outlined here. We remain ever hopeful that someday, Scripture Central will take these aspirations to heart for the benefit of everyone involved. </p><p>Original in <b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">blue</span></b>, my comments in <b><span style="color: #990000;">red</span></b>.</p><p><a href="https://rsc.byu.edu/no-weapon-shall-prosper/role-evidence-religious-discussion">https://rsc.byu.edu/no-weapon-shall-prosper/role-evidence-religious-discussion</a></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">While many interesting things continue to surface, all the evidence still is not in yet. Good science takes time. Much careful work remains to be done. In the mean time, <b>we may need to wait for conclusive answers that now evade us. Indeed, in all matters of faith, important evidence will always be lacking. The result will always be a hung jury, as arguments can be made on both sides. </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Both sides have faithful interpretations, but Scripture Central does not accommodate any arguments--even faithful arguments--on any side other than M2C and SITH.</span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b>These are surely debatable subjects. </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Except not at Scripture Central. </span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b>One should not expect these examinations to be any more conclusive than the inconclusively arrayed approaches in biblical and Christian studies generally. Full agreement on religious issues will probably always remain elusive, but that does not excuse fair-minded people from striving to state the evidence clearly and to seek to achieve agreements where possible.</b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">With regard to the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, Scripture Central refuses to either (i) state the evidence clearly or (ii) seek to achieve agreements where possible. </span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">When agreements are not possible, the appropriate solution is to present all the facts along with alternative interpretations and enable people to make informed decisions. </span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Yet Scripture Central refuses to do this.</span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In the mean time, the choice remains in the hands, minds, and hearts of all those who care and who seek to increase their knowledge and faith. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #990000;"><b>People cannot make informed choices when they don't know all the evidence and are unaware of alternative interpretations.</b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">“Of all our needs,” President Hinckley has said, “the greatest is an increase in faith.”<span class="span-no-wrap" style="box-sizing: border-box; text-wrap: nowrap;"> </span><a href="https://rsc.byu.edu/no-weapon-shall-prosper/role-evidence-religious-discussion#_edn80" name="_ednref80" style="background-color: transparent; box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; text-decoration-line: none;">[80]</a> Anything that truly helps in that process, even a little bit, should be useful to us. </span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #990000;">For thousands of Latter-day Saints around the world, it helps to increase faith when they see ways to corroborate what Joseph and Oliver said about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. They find it troubling to faith when they see LDS scholars teaching that Joseph and Oliver were wrong about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">As a young man and still today, I have always felt very satisfied in my testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ as taught and revealed in the Bible and LDS scripture. At first, I believed that there was little or no evidence of any kind at all. Never expecting to find great proofs or evidence for the gospel, I have been astonished and richly satisfied with what the Lord has done.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b>It seems clear enough that the Lord does not intend for the Book of Mormon, the Bible, or any other sacred matters to be open-and-shut cases intellectually, either pro or con. If God had intended this, he could have left more concrete evidences one way or the other. </b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Scripture Central treats M2C and SITH as open-and-shut cases that cannot be questioned, challenged, or even compared with alternatives. </span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b><br /></b></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b>Instead, it seems that the Lord has maintained a careful balance between requiring people to exercise faith and allowing them to find reasons that affirm the stated origins of his revealed word. Instead, the choice is, then, entirely ours.</b> Ultimately, evidences may not be that important; but then again, it is always easy to say that a parachute is irrelevant after you are safely on the ground.</span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">Latter-day Saints who still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon have to look outside of Scripture Central to find reasons that affirm their faith.</span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></b></p><p style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: "Public Sans", Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 15px; margin: 0px; padding: 0 0 var(--paragraph-spacing);"><b><span style="color: #990000;">It's a completely avoidable tragedy that Scripture Central continues to contradict the worthy and commendable aspirations set out in this article.</span></b></p><p>_____</p><p>Note: Scripture Central generally keeps its "hands clean" by burying the criticism in the database and leaving it up on affiliate sites, such as BMAF.org. But their employees, volunteers, and contributors use social media, podcasts, and newspaper interviews to criticize us as zealots, anti-science, anti-academia, and even apostates, etc. Then Scripture Central excuses this activity by saying they have no control over what their people do.</p><div class="div-h2" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--heading-text); font-family: "HCo Ringside Narrow SSm", "Open Sans", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 1.4em; line-height: 1.3; margin: 0.5em 0px;"><br /></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-63155918619682006682024-03-14T09:09:00.000-07:002024-03-14T09:09:16.433-07:00Podcast on the March Liahona article<p>In this important podcast we review two articles in the US/Canada section of the March 2024 <i>Liahona</i>.</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5hnwF2qTgQ" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S5hnwF2qTgQ</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhlye6YavTxM79masTGeHjV1M5SsjMjFcVk1HHP0dVGEaQAomj94g-Yfjt7Ih2MFiQUF_nG4ZmCpb3A4GS3vKkhJJk7-hJiYcxYdvPrvyayXmM_cfNzdo4e5ziWkQPoOBx_VKMQxpVt-cSSuM91UQ12hWbp3w9kvy8uT2aCAWwDp7J-fxsSXY8F4KMen2o/s358/Podcast-TLD-Liahona%20article%20March%202024.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="281" data-original-width="358" height="251" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhlye6YavTxM79masTGeHjV1M5SsjMjFcVk1HHP0dVGEaQAomj94g-Yfjt7Ih2MFiQUF_nG4ZmCpb3A4GS3vKkhJJk7-hJiYcxYdvPrvyayXmM_cfNzdo4e5ziWkQPoOBx_VKMQxpVt-cSSuM91UQ12hWbp3w9kvy8uT2aCAWwDp7J-fxsSXY8F4KMen2o/s320/Podcast-TLD-Liahona%20article%20March%202024.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, and in the hope for better information in future articles, we pull up the actual articles on the website. Then we go through them in detail, showing how the authors "moved the ball down the field" toward accuracy regarding the translation of the Book of Mormon and the witnesses of the plates. </p><p>However, they fumbled because they just could not bring themselves to actually quote what Joseph and Oliver said about the translation, or what David said about the messenger who took the abridged plates from Harmony to Cumorah.</p><p>It was awesome for the authors to provide a citation to some of these sources, which many Latter-day Saints have never seen or heard of.</p><p>But then they forgot to provide links to the original sources, which are difficult to find, so even readers who bother to read the footnotes will remain ignorant of what Joseph, Oliver and David said about these important events in Church history.</p><p>This podcast continues the conversation started on this blog here</p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2024/03/march-liahona-mark-ashurst-mcgee-almost.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2024/03/march-liahona-mark-ashurst-mcgee-almost.html</a></p><p>and here</p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2024/03/march-liahona-gerrit-dirkmaat-almost.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2024/03/march-liahona-gerrit-dirkmaat-almost.html</a></p><p>For an overview, go to </p><p><a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html</a></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-3219677713826747152024-03-13T11:25:00.000-07:002024-03-13T11:25:55.550-07:00Podcast with the Murph on Heartland-Part 1<p>In this podcast, we discuss the principles of clarity, charity and understanding that lead to "no more contention." </p><p>We also consider the psychology of discussing various topics, including the Heartland theory, and focus on the Hill Cumorah.</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WovkCT-2b08" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WovkCT-2b08</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgE0cZ6BHv8ma_qVdSR0SMdy2AXBQbQ-zxubAT_2t_vHToLyJK5TI4oTVyhR5XsYKdXcDnts9xDwqUix2T2ivhZ8AKFqfWyyYMsC9nocOxmVBhNJTbc7VQz8GvPmES-d1qMY08pbrWsZkzB2NQWe0gYQlIcg_56gL3lXpoJILWOthHvmF7b8h8FHstocdc/s348/Podcast-Murph%20on%20Hill%20Cumorah.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="268" data-original-width="348" height="246" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgE0cZ6BHv8ma_qVdSR0SMdy2AXBQbQ-zxubAT_2t_vHToLyJK5TI4oTVyhR5XsYKdXcDnts9xDwqUix2T2ivhZ8AKFqfWyyYMsC9nocOxmVBhNJTbc7VQz8GvPmES-d1qMY08pbrWsZkzB2NQWe0gYQlIcg_56gL3lXpoJILWOthHvmF7b8h8FHstocdc/s320/Podcast-Murph%20on%20Hill%20Cumorah.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-19231863558168725572024-03-12T17:00:00.000-07:002024-03-12T17:00:00.318-07:00Kirk Magleby, Jonathan Edwards, and isles of the seaIt has been brought to my attention that my friend Kirk Magleby, "Chief Evangelist" of Book of Mormon and Scripture Central and therefore a devout M2Cer, posted an explanation of how the scriptures support his assumption that the Lehites sailed east from the Arabian peninsula to the west coast of Central America. (M2C is the acronym for the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory.)<div><br /></div><div><a href="https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/2024/02/lehites-sailed-east.html?m=1" target="_blank">https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/2024/02/lehites-sailed-east.html?m=1</a><br /><div><br /></div><div>It's always great to see people working on the scriptures, so post this interested me. This is a long post that probably few will read, but it was useful for me to assess Kirk's claims in detail. I wish we could collaborate on this type of work, but I've been pushing on that string for many years now, to no avail. </div><div><br /></div><div>Kirk's post is a thoughtful analysis of verses from the Book of Mormon. It's a good example of how everyone can read the identical scriptures and yet come away with different interpretations because of assumptions, inferences, theories, etc. Yet Kirk's approach looks outcome-driven to me because he skips over relevant passages.</div><div><br /></div><div>As I read the same verses, I reach a much different conclusion than Kirk does. </div><div><br /></div><div>Hopefully it's also a good example of how a friendly discussion over differences of opinion can help enlighten readers by giving them alternatives to think about, without aiming at any particular conclusion. We seek to enable and facilitate the formation of <i>informed </i>opinions and decisions.</div><div><br /></div><div>My comments are made in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding. </div><div><br /></div><div><b>Clarity </b>means looking at the actual scriptures and related context.</div><div><b>Charity </b>means assuming everyone acts in good faith, sincerity, etc.</div><div><b>Understanding </b>means seeking to understand Kirk's points, while also understanding alternative interpretations, all with the objective of helping people make informed decisions without seeking to persuade, compel, coerce, convince, or convert anyone.</div><div><br /></div><div>IOW, this is another example of <a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a> and a case of multiple working hypotheses.</div><div>_____<br /><div><br /></div><div>Kirk's original post in <b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">blue</span></b>, my comments in <b><span style="color: #990000;">red</span></b>, quotations from original sources in <b><span style="color: #38761d;">green</span></b>.<br /><div><br /></div><div><div><div class="fauxcolumn-outer fauxcolumn-left-outer" style="background-color: white; bottom: 0px; color: #666666; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px; left: 0px; overflow: hidden; position: absolute; top: 0px; width: 0px;"><div class="fauxborder-left" style="background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: repeat-y; height: 1123.19px; position: relative;"><div class="fauxborder-right" style="background-position: 100% 0%; background-repeat: repeat-y; height: 1123.19px; position: absolute; right: 0px;"></div><div class="fauxcolumn-inner" style="border-right: 1px solid rgb(221, 221, 221); height: 1123.19px;"></div></div><div class="cap-bottom" style="background-position: 0% 100%; background-repeat: repeat-x; height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="cap-left" style="background-position: 0% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat; float: left; height: 0px;"></div><div class="cap-right" style="background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat; float: right; height: 0px;"></div></div></div><div class="fauxcolumn-outer fauxcolumn-right-outer" style="background-color: white; bottom: 0px; color: #666666; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px; overflow: hidden; position: absolute; right: 0px; top: 0px; width: 0px;"><div class="cap-top" style="background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: repeat-x; height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="cap-left" style="background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat; float: left; height: 0px;"></div><div class="cap-right" style="background-position: 100% 0%; background-repeat: no-repeat; float: right; height: 0px;"></div></div><div class="fauxborder-left" style="background-position: 0% 0%; background-repeat: repeat-y; height: 1123.19px; position: relative;"><div class="fauxborder-right" style="background-position: 100% 0%; background-repeat: repeat-y; height: 1123.19px; position: absolute; right: 0px;"></div><div class="fauxcolumn-inner" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(221, 221, 221); height: 1123.19px;"></div></div><div class="cap-bottom" style="background-position: 0% 100%; background-repeat: repeat-x; height: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="cap-left" style="background-position: 0% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat; float: left; height: 0px;"></div><div class="cap-right" style="background-position: 100% 100%; background-repeat: no-repeat; float: right; height: 0px;"></div></div></div><div class="columns-inner" style="background-color: white; font-family: "Trebuchet MS", Trebuchet, Verdana, sans-serif; font-size: 14.4px; min-height: 0px;"><div class="column-center-outer" style="float: left; position: relative; width: 960px;"><div class="column-center-inner" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><div class="main section" id="main" name="Main" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><div class="widget Blog" data-version="1" id="Blog1" style="clear: both; line-height: 1.4; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; padding: 0px; position: relative;"><div class="blog-posts hfeed"><div class="date-outer" style="margin: 0px; padding: 10px;"><h2 class="date-header" style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 11px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="background-color: #bbbbbb; letter-spacing: 3px; margin: 0px -10px; padding: 0.1em 10px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Tuesday, February 13, 2024</span></span></h2><div class="date-posts"><div class="post-outer" style="margin: 0px; padding: 0px;"><div class="post hentry uncustomized-post-template" itemscope="itemscope" itemtype="http://schema.org/BlogPosting" style="margin: 0px; min-height: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><a name="3909545237698353320"></a></span><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 24.48px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Lehites Sailed East</span></h3></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Noe Correa, a brilliant Scripture Central colleague, shared this insightful exegesis with me today. I thought about it for several hours, and am convinced Noe's conclusion is correct. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Naturally Kirk is convinced because Correa's interpretation confirms Kirk's bias for M2C. Others looking at the identical scriptures reach a different conclusion. We'll look at the series of assumptions, inferences, and theories that lead to both Kirk's and alternative hypotheses (the FAITH model).</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">When the Lehites left their Bountiful harbor in modern-day Oman, they sailed east toward India, Indonesia, and the Philippines before crossing the Pacific and landing on the west coast of Mexico or Guatemala.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Kirk states this as a fact, not an assumption, inference, theory, hypothesis, etc. While it may be good persuasion technique to state a theory as a fact, </span><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk simply (i) <i>assumes </i>they arrived on the west coast of Central America and then (ii) <i>assumes </i>they arrived there by sailing east and across the Pacific.</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">As we'll see, Kirk confirms his bias by assuming that the phrase "those who are in the east" in 1 Nephi 21:13 (i) was added by Nephi when he quoted Isaiah, (ii) that Nephi applied that phrase to his own people, and (iii) that Nephi reached this conclusion because he sailed east from the Arabian peninsula.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Charity and understanding</b>: We assume Noe and Kirk are acting in good faith. We want to understand their beliefs, not persuade anyone that they are right or wrong.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Let's try to understand his reasoning and compare it to other working hypotheses.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="background-attachment: initial; background-clip: initial; background-image: initial; background-origin: initial; background-position: initial; background-repeat: initial; background-size: initial; border: 1px solid rgb(238, 238, 238); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 1px 1px 5px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 5px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjuAH9ZomXd6IoGi-gmBhpBpppZMIneIS_1dcf-051Yj4OvU4htRDiPFPGBecOq-GU9hRXzYUnL0r7bKReImr4to4VZUlCdwYKxkm27wD0ln9k7EkOSnCOyem2DzMjg6354jfMPGOHWjY3yDs95_iLFUF3h0USh96G83mMntvwNF6nvxYWIhZCtQRBTb2Tw/s1558/2024%2002%2013%20Lehi%20Sailed%20East.png" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><img border="0" data-original-height="958" data-original-width="1558" height="172" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjuAH9ZomXd6IoGi-gmBhpBpppZMIneIS_1dcf-051Yj4OvU4htRDiPFPGBecOq-GU9hRXzYUnL0r7bKReImr4to4VZUlCdwYKxkm27wD0ln9k7EkOSnCOyem2DzMjg6354jfMPGOHWjY3yDs95_iLFUF3h0USh96G83mMntvwNF6nvxYWIhZCtQRBTb2Tw/w400-h246/2024%2002%2013%20Lehi%20Sailed%20East.png" style="background: transparent; border: none; box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.1) 0px 0px 0px; box-sizing: border-box; max-width: 100%; padding: 0px; position: relative;" width="280" /></span></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 12.672px; text-align: center;"><span style="font-size: medium;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Likely Route of Lehite Voyage <br /></span></span></td></tr></tbody></table><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Likely Route of Lehite Voyage </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Now it's only a "likely route," which is better, but because he still ignores alternatives,* we have no way to assess the relative likelihood of Kirk's conclusion.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Kirk's concept is the one RLDS scholar L.E. Hills proposed in his 1923 map, which built on his 1917 map. This was a departure of the speculative belief that Lehi landed in Chile, which Orson Pratt even included in his footnotes in the 1879 LDS edition of the Book of Mormon. Those footnotes were deleted in the 1920 LDS edition. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbptUpfythCDSYESmgFHkxmrRqwTJDEhqrt9cdkL5P7aIk-JdLipDwAzwLaUIJjDD_DvY5daoVnM-wiY3Id3gGPAE5KiUntfdXk6a473rykVsOFluCCqK2qO15DCTkh7B7ZpjUE4Cmw_tC7ZIfVpXTXHXQCoEesSGPWuTPtYDQvlHUM9NvJ96r0bRf0m4/s925/LE%20Hills%20BofM%20voyages.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="555" data-original-width="925" height="192" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjbptUpfythCDSYESmgFHkxmrRqwTJDEhqrt9cdkL5P7aIk-JdLipDwAzwLaUIJjDD_DvY5daoVnM-wiY3Id3gGPAE5KiUntfdXk6a473rykVsOFluCCqK2qO15DCTkh7B7ZpjUE4Cmw_tC7ZIfVpXTXHXQCoEesSGPWuTPtYDQvlHUM9NvJ96r0bRf0m4/s320/LE%20Hills%20BofM%20voyages.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgPVYPCW6xO19h2-1oqnMkim-6mzWhUqzKiI67XFUX4b_5jS8IwI6vpkMnkUtErJwQYYCd4x5n3nNLhnJrDl9fobMlc7BDSYo1KQfVrg3qFxd28X6Ovc6sLzj9UG71ckK2l9QFiw1d7gXIjm-FMREz19JgYmeRvCs8XoxuiC8lJM4HMpx983S23JmmKgoA/s925/LE%20Hills%20BofM%20voyages%20redline.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="555" data-original-width="925" height="192" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgPVYPCW6xO19h2-1oqnMkim-6mzWhUqzKiI67XFUX4b_5jS8IwI6vpkMnkUtErJwQYYCd4x5n3nNLhnJrDl9fobMlc7BDSYo1KQfVrg3qFxd28X6Ovc6sLzj9UG71ckK2l9QFiw1d7gXIjm-FMREz19JgYmeRvCs8XoxuiC8lJM4HMpx983S23JmmKgoA/s320/LE%20Hills%20BofM%20voyages%20redline.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiWXaRMNSQhvyreEEHNXJTOcal2NXGNOVptG4jps6gDpeuGZBlQ1sxvE6dIkGNXhwMNl_R7HzozNvMGD9KQLoLr_B371-1lBPMBKb4mvdfNdpv77GZzprK1h4T0yEMNDaRr6OVBqG70ASlb_HSyN9hy0xg12TCeiodIwIFiDYKMzpjBouSZMepSkR3LxFo/s780/M2C%20by%20LE%20Hills.jpeg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="590" data-original-width="780" height="242" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiWXaRMNSQhvyreEEHNXJTOcal2NXGNOVptG4jps6gDpeuGZBlQ1sxvE6dIkGNXhwMNl_R7HzozNvMGD9KQLoLr_B371-1lBPMBKb4mvdfNdpv77GZzprK1h4T0yEMNDaRr6OVBqG70ASlb_HSyN9hy0xg12TCeiodIwIFiDYKMzpjBouSZMepSkR3LxFo/s320/M2C%20by%20LE%20Hills.jpeg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Map by L.E. Hills, 1923</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Up to this point, our single clue in the text of the Book of Mormon that pointed to a Lehite landfall on the Pacific coast of the Americas was Alma 22:28 that says the place of the Lamanites' fathers' first inheritance (aka land of their first inheritance Mosiah 10:13) was bordering the seashore on the west in the land of Nephi. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Clarity: The "aka" is a giveaway that this is another unstated assumption. It's interesting that Kirk describes this as "our single clue" because the clue consists of another unstated assumption. Anyone can read the actual verse and see it doesn't say or imply "Pacific" or even "west coast."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">28 Now, the more idle part of the Lamanites lived in the wilderness, and dwelt in tents; and they were spread through the wilderness on the west, in the land of Nephi; yea, and also on the west of the land of Zarahemla, in the borders by the seashore, and on the west in the land of Nephi, in the place of their fathers’ first inheritance, and thus bordering along by the seashore.</span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">(Alma 22:28)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div><div style="color: #990000;">To understand why, picture any island. The north and south coasts both have an east and a west side. The east and west coasts both have a north and a south side. Someone living "on the west" of the island could be living along the southern, western, or northern coast. For example, Havana is "on the west" of Cuba, and it borders along the seashore, but it is on the northern coast. </div></div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRA6qFssY6fWiU7xR-LZnQIhVgMkNQ_5kO-IUkCvKFbchMxX7_mBnN0qHj1aZVNR274W_rIl3lRTUQIqouXpKbQ_7el9Zc16DT3ew21_8XMGmHgne3APJc72TMQeh513GN8sC_94R-d4ckxld0ICBJri6Gp9MV4s4VxuOAy4ARkj7QoP24hQ6llBdiGxg/s1048/Cuba%20and%20Havana.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="454" data-original-width="1048" height="139" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhRA6qFssY6fWiU7xR-LZnQIhVgMkNQ_5kO-IUkCvKFbchMxX7_mBnN0qHj1aZVNR274W_rIl3lRTUQIqouXpKbQ_7el9Zc16DT3ew21_8XMGmHgne3APJc72TMQeh513GN8sC_94R-d4ckxld0ICBJri6Gp9MV4s4VxuOAy4ARkj7QoP24hQ6llBdiGxg/s320/Cuba%20and%20Havana.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div style="color: #990000;">IOW, if we take the text of Alma 22:28 as a fact, we see it could describe a variety of settings. To interpret the text, we apply our assumptions and inferences. In this case, Kirk assumes a Central American setting, so he interprets the verse to mean the west coast of Central America. That's a plausible interpretation, given his assumption, but it's not driven by the text itself.</div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div><div style="color: #990000;">Everyone who has proposed a setting for the Book of Mormon interprets Alma 22:28 according to their assumptions. Lots of other interpretations are feasible. For example, I assume a North American setting, so I interpret the verse to refer to the west part of the Land of Nephi along the south coast; i.e., roughly the panhandle of Florida to the Mississippi River. Again, an assumption that satisfies the text. </div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Almost all Mesoamerican geographers locate the land of Nephi in highland Guatemala, so west by the seashore would be in the general vicinity of Izapa near the mouth of the Suchiate River which is the boundary between modern Mexico and Guatemala.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj28GFeVwqMNpbXFTylBX6megbp6suf2uDWCfDKOskZSeqKEb1glHjNmGqPkQLE-NJT8R57J2SKmIw35arPHI17PDeuCu9bmAusO_S5-R50jmKZ-eNrpymG4ra3HdeO5RTAU61E5pB7oiE_GdPWKw1Z9o1SPJeTVQy91Qftys0jO93QMPZHvuTeeVGKp18/s858/Kirk's%20landing%20site.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="592" data-original-width="858" height="221" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj28GFeVwqMNpbXFTylBX6megbp6suf2uDWCfDKOskZSeqKEb1glHjNmGqPkQLE-NJT8R57J2SKmIw35arPHI17PDeuCu9bmAusO_S5-R50jmKZ-eNrpymG4ra3HdeO5RTAU61E5pB7oiE_GdPWKw1Z9o1SPJeTVQy91Qftys0jO93QMPZHvuTeeVGKp18/s320/Kirk's%20landing%20site.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Kirk's theoretical landing spot</td></tr></tbody></table><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: "Almost all" is a dual logical fallacy, combining the Appeal to Authority (Mesoamerican geographers) with an Argumentum ad Populumn, which presumes a proposition must be true because most/many believe it to be true. We would normally dismiss arguments based on these fallacies, but let's unpack this one a little.</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: By "Mesoamerican geographers" Kirk means M2C believers, because outside of the M2C bubble, exactly zero "Mesoamerican geographers" locate the land of Nephi anywhere in Mesoamerica. Within the M2C bubble, there are different assumptions and interpretations. Because Kirk doesn't acknowledge or identify those who are not among the "almost all" group of M2Cers, we can't compare their ideas with Kirk's to see which are more plausible. </span></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Here we see the pure assumption that is critical to Kirk's worldview. He first assumes that the land of Nephi is in Guatemala. Then he assumes that "west by the seashore" (a non-textual term) means the Pacific coast. But as we saw with the island example, the text does not state or imply that there is a west coast. A west coast is merely one of several interpretations. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">So far, all Kirk is doing is explaining that his assumptions--not the text, but his assumptions--lead to his overall hypothesis. Which is fine, of course. It's axiomatic that his assumptions, inferences, and theories lead to his M2C hypothesis. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The same is true of everyone's interpretations of the text. We find affinity to an interpretation based on our own assumptions, inferences, etc.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Noe now adds a second confirming data point. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Noe's point is not "data" but another series of assumptions that corroborate (but don't confirm) Kirk's own assumptions. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Charity and understanding</b>: Again, we charitably assume Noe and Kirk are acting in good faith. We seek clarity because we want to understand their beliefs and not to persuade anyone that they are right or wrong.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">His [Noe's] logic is:</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">1. Nephi quoting Zenos says the Lord in the last days will remember and gather Israel from the isles of the sea and the four quarters of the earth. 1 Nephi 19:16. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Clarity:</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Yea, then will he remember t<b>he isles of the sea</b>; yea, and all the people who are of the house of Israel, will I gather in, saith the Lord, according to the words of the prophet Zenos, <b>from the four quarters of the earth</b>. (1 Nephi 19:16)</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Jacob explicitly says the Nephites were upon an isle of the sea. 2 Nephi 10:20-21. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: #990000;">Clarity:</span></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div><span><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">nevertheless, we have been driven out of the land of our inheritance; but we have been led to a better land, for the Lord has made the sea our path, and <b>we are upon an isle of the sea</b>. (2 Nephi 10:20)</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><span><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">The Lord also refers to the posterity of Lehi on an island </span><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/29?lang=eng&id=p11#p11" target="_blank">2 Nephi 29:11</a><span style="color: #2b00fe;"> in one of the quarters of the earth. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: #990000;">Clarity:</span></span></div><div><br /></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">11 For I command all men, both in the <b>east </b>and in the <b>west</b>, and in the <b>north</b>, and in the <b>south</b>, <b>and in the islands of the sea,</b> that they shall write the words which I speak unto them; for out of the books which shall be written I will judge the world, every man according to their works, according to that which is written.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: the verse refers to "all men." It doesn't mention the posterity of Lehi by name, but we can reasonably infer that the posterity of Lehi are included <i>among </i>those in the islands of the sea. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">But notice Kirk's assumption that the verse puts Lehi's "island... <i>in </i>one of the quarters of the earth."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Instead of putting the island "</span><i style="color: #990000;">in </i><span style="color: #990000;">one of the quarters of the earth" as Kirk claims, the verse </span><i style="color: #990000;">separates and distinguishes </i><span style="color: #990000;">the "islands from the sea" from the four quarters of the earth.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Zenos did likewise in the verse above, <i>separating</i> "the isles of the sea" from "the four quarters of the earth." </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">This is an important point because as a Biblical phrase "four quarters of the earth" refers to the "Eastern continent" known to Biblical authors, who were unaware of the "Western continent." By separating the "islands of the sea" from the four quarters and from the "east, west, north, and south," these two passages suggest that "islands of the sea" refers to the "Western continent" unknown to Biblical authors. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Obviously, that's an assumption. People can compare that assumption with Kirk's assumption that Lehi's island is in one of the (unspecified) quarters of the earth.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Another passage distinguishes the two concepts, distinguishing "the isles of the sea" from "the four parts of the earth."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">8 And it shall come to pass that they shall be gathered in from their long dispersion, <b>from the isles of the sea, and from the four parts of the earth</b>; and the nations of the Gentiles shall be great in the eyes of me, saith God, in carrying them forth to the lands of their inheritance. (2 Nephi 10:8)</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">This brings up an interesting point about the usage of the term "isles."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The 1808 collection of the works of Jonathan Edwards, which was on sale </span><span style="color: #990000;">at least from 1818-1823 </span><span style="color: #990000;">in the Palmyra bookstore Joseph Smith frequented, included this famous passage in which Edwards interprets Isaiah to be referring to America:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><p style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0.6em 0px 1.2em; padding: 0px;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><b>And there are many things that make it probable that this work will begin in America.</b> </span></p></div></div><div><div><p style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0.6em 0px 1.2em; padding: 0px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">'Tis signified that it shall begin in some <b>very remote part of the world</b>, that the rest of the world have no communication with but by navigation, in <span class="bibl" style="font-style: italic;">Isaiah 60:9</span>, "Surely the <b>isles </b>shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring my sons from far." </span></p></div></div><div><p style="background-color: white; margin: 0.6em 0px 1.2em; padding: 0px;"><span style="color: #38761d; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;">It is exceeding manifest that <b>this chapter is a prophecy of the prosperity of the church, in its most glorious state on earth in the latter days; and I can't think that anything else can be here intended but America by "the isles that are far off,"</b> </span><span style="background-color: transparent; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d; font-family: Playfair Display, Georgia, Times New Roman, serif;">[see Isa. 66:19] </span></span><span style="color: #38761d; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;">from whence the firstborn sons of that glorious day shall be brought. ...</span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><p style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0.6em 0px 1.2em; padding: 0px;"><b><span style="color: #38761d;">And if we may suppose that this glorious work of God shall begin in any part of America, I think, if we consider the circumstances of the settlement of New England, it must needs appear the most likely of all American colonies, to be the place whence this work shall principally take its rise.</span></b></p><p><span style="color: #38761d;"><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;">And if these things are so, it gives us more abundant reasons to hope that what is now seen in America, and especially in New England, may prove</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;"> </span><b style="font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;">the dawn of that glorious day</b><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;">: and the very uncommon and wonderful circumstances and events of this work, seem to me strongly to argue that</span><span style="background-color: white; font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;"> </span><b style="font-family: "Playfair Display", Georgia, "Times New Roman", serif; font-size: 13px;">God intends it as the beginning or forerunner of something vastly great.</b> </span></p></blockquote><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"> <a href="https://dailyjonathanedwards.blogspot.com/2024/03/the-millennium-probably-to-dawn-in.html" target="_blank">https://dailyjonathanedwards.blogspot.com/2024/03/the-millennium-probably-to-dawn-in.html</a></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Edwards' interpretation corroborates the distinction the Book of Mormon makes between the "isles of the sea" (the New World) on one hand and, on the other hand, the "four quarters of the earth," the "four parts of the earth," and the "east, west, north and south" (the Old World).</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">That Edwards also anticipated that the glorious work of God in the latter days (i.e., the Restoration) would begin in New England is a topic for another post, but here we note that New England consists of six states in the Northeastern United States: Connecticut, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Rhode Island, and Vermont. Joseph Smith was born in Vermont and his ancestors lived in Massachusetts. Joseph explained that the Restoration started when he was about the age of six when he was living in Vermont. He had life-threatening leg surgery that led him to become a religious seeker, which in turn led to ensuing events of the Restoration.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Like other Latter-day Saints, I have noticed the influence of Jonathan Edwards on the non-biblical language in the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and Joseph Smith's personal writings. My "nonbiblical intertextual database" of Book of Mormon words and phrases is available on <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Nonbiblical-Intertextuality-Database-supplement-Infinite-ebook/dp/B0CNJBTG8R" target="_blank">Kindle</a>. A summary/overview is here:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><a href="https://www.mobom.org/jonathan-edwards" target="_blank">https://www.mobom.org/jonathan-edwards</a></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">An early draft version of the NID is here:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><a href="https://www.mobom.org/nonbiblical-intertextuality-database" target="_blank">https://www.mobom.org/nonbiblical-intertextuality-database</a></span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Back to Kirk's post.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">2. Nephi reiterates the prophecy that the children of Israel will be gathered from the four quarters of the earth. 1 Nephi 22:25.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">And he gathereth his children from the four quarters of the earth; (1 Nephi 22:25)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">This passage alludes to the biblical "four quarters" framework of the Old World in Revelation 20:4 (the only biblical passage that uses the phrase "four quarters of the earth") and blends other biblical passages. Because of the biblical framework, we would not expect this passage to mention "isles of the sea" and it doesn't.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><b>Bible:</b> 7 And when the thousand years are expired, <b>Satan shall be loosed out of his prison</b>,</span></div></div></div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in <b>the four quarters of the earth</b>, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. (Revelation 20:7–8)</span></div></div></div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><br /></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><b>Book of Mormon:</b> 25 And he gathereth his children (John 11:52) from <b>the four quarters of the earth</b>; and he numbereth his sheep, and they know him (John 10:4, 14); and there shall be one fold and one shepherd (John 10:16); and he shall feed his sheep (John 21: 16,7), and in him they shall find pasture (John 10:9).</span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">26 And because of the righteousness of his people, <b>Satan has no power; wherefore, he cannot be loosed for the space of many years</b>; (1 Nephi 22:25–26)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></div></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">This is similar to the way 2 Nephi 21:9 uses the biblical phrase "four corners of the earth" in language identical to Isaiah 11:12 (see also Revelation 7:1), with no mention of the "isles of the sea." </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">3. In <a href="1 Nephi 21:8" target="_blank">1 Nephi 21:8</a> Nephi quotes Isaiah 49:8, but as part of his "likening" Isaiah to his people (see 1 Nephi 19:23), Nephi adds the phrase "O isles of the sea" which explicitly makes the Lord's words in the Isaiah passage refer to the Nephites.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: here is the full verse.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Thus saith the Lord: In an acceptable time have I heard thee, <b>O isles of the sea,</b> and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee my servant for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; (1 Nephi 21:8)</span></div></div></blockquote><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Kirk assumes that Nephi inserted the phrase instead of simply quoting the original ancient version of Isaiah. As we saw from Jonathan Edwards, Isaiah spoke of the isles of the sea. In fact, the first verse of this chapter, in both Isaiah and 1 Nephi, addresses the isles specifically:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;">Listen, <b>O isles</b>, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. </span><span style="color: #38761d;">(Isaiah 49:1)</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><p><span style="color: #990000;">Nephi's version has an additional sentence at the beginning, but otherwise quotes Isaiah exactly. </span></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;">And again: Hearken, O ye house of Israel, all ye that are broken off and are driven out because of the wickedness of the pastors of my people; yea, all ye that are broken off, that are scattered abroad, who are of my people, O house of Israel. Listen, <b>O isles</b>, unto me, and hearken ye people from far; the Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name. </span><span style="color: #38761d;">(1 Nephi 21:1)</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><span></span><span><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Because the chapter starts out by addressing the isles, Nephi had no need to interject another reference to the isles. That leads me to infer the passage was in the original Isaiah.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Regardless of whether the extra passage in verse 8 came from Nephi or Isaiah, the passage does not refer to the Nephites explicitly or exclusively, as Nephi explains in the next chapter.</span></div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">4 And behold, there are many who are already lost from the knowledge of those who are at Jerusalem. Yea, <b>the more part of all the tribes</b> have been led away; and <b>they are scattered to and fro upon the isles of the sea</b>; and whither they are none of us knoweth, save that we know that they have been led away. </span><span style="color: #38761d;">(1 Nephi 22:4)</span> </div></div></blockquote><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Jacob also points out that other tribes also live on the isles of the sea.</span></div><div> </div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">21 But great are the promises of the Lord unto them who are upon the isles of the sea; wherefore <b>as it says isles</b>, <b>there must needs be more than this, and they are inhabited also by our brethren.</b> (2 Nephi 10:21)</span></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div style="text-align: left;"><br /></div></blockquote><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;">We see that Isaiah was not referring only to the Nephites but to "the more part of all the tribes," and we don't know where the other tribes are any more than Nephi and Jacob did. Except we know they are not in the Old World because of the way the "isles of the sea" are separated from the "four quarters of the earth," etc. That's why Jonathan Edwards' explanation still makes sense today. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">4. Nephi, still quoting Isaiah, says the house of Israel will be gathered from the north, the west, and the land of Sinim. 1 Nephi 21:12. The earliest text we have of Isaiah is the great Isaiah scroll from the Dead Sea Scrolls, and rather than "Sinim" it says "Syene" which is Aswan in southern Egypt. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Here's the passage:</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">And then, O house of Israel, behold, these shall come from far; and lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of <b>Sinim</b>. (1 Nephi 21:12)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">First, we note that Kirk claims the term in the Book of Mormon is incorrect.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;">We briefly digress to note that because the Book of Mormon uses the term "Sinim," it must be the correct term if Joseph read words off a stone in the hat (SITH); i.e., the stone would have supplied the term "Sinim" and those who believe in SITH necessarily believe the words that appeared on the stone were correct. </span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Or, if Joseph was translating the engravings on the plates "after the manner of his language" (D&C 1:24) as I believe, he would have used the KJV terminology he was familiar with, which Kirk implicitly claims when he says the term in the Book of Mormon is incorrect.</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Bible scholars have been divided on the meaning of Sinim, and most infer it means a distant land, presumably China. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><a href="https://biblehub.com/topical/s/sinim.htm" target="_blank">https://biblehub.com/topical/s/sinim.htm</a></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">The name occurs in Isaiah's prophecy of the return of the people from distant lands: "Lo, these shall come from far; and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim" (Isaiah 49:12). The land is clearly far off, and it must be sought either in the South or in the East. Septuagint points to an eastern country. Many scholars have favored identification with China, the classical Sinae. It seems improbable that Jews had already found their way to China; but from very early times trade relations were established with the Far East by way of Arabia and the Persian Gulf; and the name may have been used by the prophet simply as suggesting extreme remoteness. Against, this view are Dillmann (Commentary on Isaiah), Duhm, Cheyne and others. Some have suggested places in the South: e.g. Sin (Pelusium, Ezekiel 30:15) and Syene (Cheyne, Introduction to Isa, 275). <b>But these seem to be too near. </b>In harmony with his reconstruction of Biblical history, Cheyne finally concludes that the reference here is to the return from a captivity in North Arabia (EB, under the word). While no certain decision is possible, probability points to the East, and China cannot be quite ruled out.</span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Obviously, if the Book of Mormon is correct and the passage refers to somewhere in the East, then Kirk's assumption doesn't work. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">If the passage refers to Aswan, as Kirk and many commentators suggest, it wouldn't seem to qualify as "from far" as explained above. Aswan is </span><span style="color: #990000;">only about 1/3 the distance from Jerusalem compared to the coast of Oman, for example. B</span><span style="color: #990000;">ut anything's possible. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">As far back as 1669, the Christian theologian Increase Mather disagreed with the China interpretation, favoring the idea that it signifies the south, which corroborates Kirk's interpretation.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">Some think that the Tartars are the ten Tribes: But ... others upon better grounds affirm the contrary, that the Tartars are not the progeny of the ten Tribes, yet many Israelites there are scattered amongst them. And many of them are in China. Hence some learned ... men are of opinion, that by the Land of Sinim, Isa, 49.12. is meant China. <b>But although I think not so, for Sinim there may well be interpreted (according to the exact scope of that place, declaring a gathering of Israelites out of the four corners of the earth) as signifying the South</b>, and therefore the word may well intimate a place ... in Egypt called Sin) yet it is true, that many Israelites are dispersed in those parts. In a word, it is justly believed, that if all the Israelites which be in the world were ... together, they would make the greatest Nation [Page 57] upon the whole earth. </span></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">(from WordCruncher, 17c: 1660s; 1669, N00091 / 5. THE MYSTERY OF,70¶)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Most modern Bible translations replace Sinim with Aswan, as Kirk concludes, and commentators think that it signifies a symbolic gathering "from the south," not merely from one specific location. </span></div><div><a href="https://biblehub.com/isaiah/49-12.htm" target="_blank">https://biblehub.com/isaiah/49-12.htm</a></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Let's say, for discussion purposes, that Kirk's assumption is the most plausible, still recognizing it is not a fact but an assumption that Joseph translated "after the manner of his language" by incorporating the KJV term.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">So, Isaiah is referring to the house of Israel gathering from the north, west, and south. But north, west, and south are not good enough for Nephi because it leaves his people out of the picture.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">5. So in 1 Nephi 21:13 Nephi inserts the phrase "for the feet of those who are in the east shall be established" to complete the quadripartite partition of the earth into four quarters. </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Let's unpack these two claims. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Here are the two passages in context, with the added material in <b>bold</b>.</span></div><div><br /></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><b><u>1 Nephi</u>:</b> <b>And then, O house of Israel</b>, behold, these shall come from far; and lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.</span></div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; <b>for the feet of those who are in the east shall be established</b>; and break forth into singing, O mountains; for <b>they shall be smitten no more</b>; for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted. (1 Nephi 21:12, 13)</span></div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><b><u>Isaiah</u>:</b> Behold, these shall come from far: and, lo, these from the north and from the west; and these from the land of Sinim.</span></div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">¶ Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted his people, and will have mercy upon his afflicted. (Isaiah 49:12, 13)</span></div></blockquote></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The first thing to notice is that </span><span style="color: #990000;">this passage does <b>not </b>say that those "who are in the east" would be <i>gathered </i>or "come from far." It says they would be "established" </span><span style="color: #990000;">and "shall be smitten no more. We'll discuss that more below.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">We saw from Increase Mather's analysis that there was no need to add an "east" reference to invoke the gathering concept. After all, verse 12 says "these shall come from far," which would encompass people coming from long distances in every direction. Specifying north, west, and Sinim might have specific purposes, as we'll discuss below.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Even if, </span><span style="color: #990000;">as Kirk claims,</span><span style="color: #990000;"> Nephi was completing the "quadripartite partition of the earth" for some reason, that still has nothing to do with those who are on the isles of the sea. </span><span style="color: #990000;">We've already seen both that (i) Nephi was on an "isle of the sea" (the New World) and that (ii) those on the isles of the sea were distinct from those being gathered from the biblical phrase "four quarters of the earth," the "four parts of the earth," and "east, west, north and south" (the Old World).</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">In fact, Kirk previously claimed that Nephi "likened the scriptures" to his people by inserting the phrase "O isles of the sea." Now he's claiming that Nephi instead identifies his people as "in the east." </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">We follow his logic that both terms could be descriptive of the same location; i.e., the "isles" can be "in the east." But because the "isles of the sea" are distinct from the "four quarters of the earth," they would not be <i>in </i>or part of any of the quarters, north, south, east or west. They are separate from the Old World. Otherwise, the verses that distinguish between the two sets of locations would be superfluous. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>"Established"</b></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;">While lots of interpretations may be possible (multiple working hypotheses), recall that this passage does <i>not </i>say those "who are in the east" would be <i>gathered </i>or "come from far." It says they would be "established" </span><span style="color: #990000;">and "shall be smitten no more." </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Why don't those "in the east" come "from far" like the other groups?</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">We also ask, to where are those who are coming "from far" coming? That is, what is their gathering place? </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Verse 13 is consistent with verse 12 if the people </span><i style="color: #990000;">gathering </i><span style="color: #990000;">from the north, west and south (assuming Sinim means south) are coming to <i>establish </i>those "in the east." </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">IOW, those "in the east" are not "coming from far" because they are already in the gathering place. Or, those coming from the north, west and south will be <i>established </i>"in the east."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">What does "established" mean in verse 13?</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Isaiah uses the term "established" only five times. Latter-day Saints are familiar with Isaiah 2:2</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div><div><div><span><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the Lord’s house shall be <b>established </b>in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. (Isaiah 2:2)</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><span><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">But that verse refers to the "mountain of the Lord's house," not "those who are in the east." </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span><span style="color: #990000;">Three other usages of "established" don't seem relevant, but Isaiah 16:5 reads, </span><span style="color: #38761d;"><span>"</span><span>And in mercy shall the throne be <i>established</i>: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David. </span><span>(Isaiah 16:5) </span></span><span style="color: #990000;">The tabernacle of David to be <i>established </i>is in Jerusalem in the land of Israel in the Old World.</span></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Isaiah uses "establish" three times. </span><span style="color: #990000;">This verse refers to the throne of David, which again is in the land of Israel in the Old World. </span></div></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><div><br /></div></span></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><div style="text-align: left;">Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to <b>establish </b>it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. (Isaiah 9:7)</div></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><div><br /></div></span></div><div><span><div style="color: #990000;">This verse also refers to Jerusalem. </div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;">I have set watchmen upon thy walls, O Jerusalem, which shall never hold their peace day nor night: ye that make mention of the Lord, keep not silence,</span></div></span></div></div></div><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;">And give him no rest, till he <b>establish</b>, and till he make Jerusalem a praise in the earth. (Isaiah 62:6–7)</span></div></span></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><span><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></span></div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;">These passages connect "establish(ed)" directly with Jerusalem in Israel in the Old World. That makes sense, because Israel is the place of gathering for Judah. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Could Israel</span><span style="color: #990000;">, or Jerusalem specifically,</span><span style="color: #990000;"> be described as "in the east?"</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Notice, it is not only "those who are in the east" but "<u>the feet of</u> those who are in the east."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The phrase "the feet of those" appears only three times in scripture, all in the Book of Mormon.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><div>13 Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; for <b>the feet of those</b> who are in the east shall be established; and break forth into singing, O mountains; (1 Nephi 21:13)</div></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;"> 15 And O how beautiful upon the mountains were their feet!</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;"> 16 And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are <b>the feet of those</b> that are still publishing peace!</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></div><div><div><div><div><div><span><div><span style="color: #38761d;"> 17 And again, how beautiful upon the mountains are <b>the feet of those</b> who shall hereafter publish peace, yea, from this time henceforth and forever! (Mosiah 15:15–17)</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><div><span><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The latter two verses are intertextual with Isaiah and Nahum, both of which refer to the Old World:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div><div><span><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">7 ¶ How b<b>eautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him</b> that bringeth good tidings, that <b>publisheth peace;</b> that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; that saith unto Zion, Thy God reigneth! (Isaiah 52:7)</span></div></span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">15 Behold <b>upon the mountains the feet of him</b> that bringeth good tidings, that <b>publisheth peace</b>! O Judah, keep thy solemn feasts, perform thy vows: for the wicked shall no more pass through thee; he is utterly cut off. (Nahum 1:15)</span></p></blockquote><div><br /></div><div><div><div><div><div><span><div style="color: #990000;">##</div></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The third usage of "establish" is in one of the verses we've been discussing:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Thus saith the Lord: In an acceptable time have I heard thee, </span><b style="color: #38761d;">O isles of the sea,</b><span style="color: #38761d;"> and in a day of salvation have I helped thee; and I will preserve thee, and give thee my servant for a covenant of the people, to <b>establish </b>the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; (1 Nephi 21:8)</span></span></div></div></div></blockquote></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">What about "smitten no more" here?</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Isaiah 5 explains how Israel was "smitten" and scattered. Here we see that after the gathering, Israel--those in the east--will be "smitten no more." The promised land of the Bible will </span><span style="color: #990000;">finally </span><span style="color: #990000;">be established.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">This is how Jacob describes what would happen in the future to "those who were at Jerusalem."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><div><div><div><div><span style="color: #38761d;">And after they have hardened their hearts and stiffened their necks against the Holy One of Israel, behold, the judgments of the Holy One of Israel shall come upon them. And <b>the day cometh</b> that they shall be <b>smitten </b>and afflicted.</span></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Wherefore, after they are driven to and fro, for thus saith the angel, many shall be afflicted in the flesh, and shall not be suffered to perish, because of the prayers of the faithful; they shall be scattered, and <b>smitten</b>, and hated; nevertheless, the Lord will be merciful unto them, that when they shall come to the knowledge of their Redeemer, they shall be gathered together again to the lands of their inheritance. </span><span style="color: #38761d;">(2 Nephi 6:10–11)</span></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">If those who would be smitten are those living in Israel (in the east), 1 Nephi 21:13 has nothing to do with those on the "isles of the sea" who, as Nephi and Jacob said, were led away before Lehi was.</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">However, another interpretation could mean that while those in the west, north and south are scattered, those "in the east" are <i>not gathered</i> but instead are "established" and "smitten no more." This could refer to those "on the isles of the sea" who lost the lands of their possession.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><div><div><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Yea, he will bring other nations unto them, and he will give unto them power, and he will take away from them the lands of their possessions, and he will cause them to be scattered and <b>smitten</b>. (2 Nephi 1:11)</span></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div><div><div><div style="color: #990000;"><br /></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">We can see that both Israel in the Old World and the Lehites in the New World were "smitten." We could be dealing with a dual fulfillment prophecy, or a case of "likening the scriptures." Both locations can be considered "in the east," both will be "established" and both will be "smitten no more."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">That would sort of support Kirk's next claim, although with a different rationale.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Nephi is saying that his people, the Nephites and Lamanites, are in the east relative to Isaiah's Jerusalem. </span></div></div><div><div><div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><b>Clarity</b>: Whether Nephi is saying this or not is a theory, not a fact. It would be clearer to write something such as "Nephi <i>may </i>be saying..."</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">If both Jerusalem and Nephi's land are "in the east," we have to ask, relative to what?</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">An isle can be "in the east," but every place on the planet is both east and west of one another. </span><span style="color: #990000;">As Kirk points out, east and west are <i>relative </i>terms. </span><span style="color: #990000;">It's a question of relative distance. Jerusalem is "east" of points west from where people would be gathered.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Somewhat ironically, it turns out that Mesoamerica is closer to Israel on the west, not the east. If you look on a globe, you can see both Israel and Mesoamerica on one half of the globe when Mesoamerica is west of Israel, but you can't when Mesoamerica is east of Israel. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk would argue that Nephi would have considered himself east of Jerusalem if he sailed east, a reasonable assumption. But we can also assume that Nephi knew the world was round so that east and west are relative terms.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Plus, if Nephi was writing from, say, Tennessee, he would know he was in the eastern part of the North American continent and thus was "in the east" relative to the rest of the land mass. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjgyCcSvKBP9F0sHpYcEo7td49989X8CQBnvX5P6O6XGzTo0-7eLtrqGSTDIjFxSzhYjjcuN27cVR1-urO0v8J0wHreMgZy0SEPwlpYnoHRqQNWxznxJSijYFVZ0TUh3D-L6hHKhtoG3ae8Ci2rNX1IGHmj1FeFD4pe39BWIduJ1GtEqEo0ntj2NJWMUsU/s867/Land%20of%20Nephi%20map.jpg" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="646" data-original-width="867" height="238" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjgyCcSvKBP9F0sHpYcEo7td49989X8CQBnvX5P6O6XGzTo0-7eLtrqGSTDIjFxSzhYjjcuN27cVR1-urO0v8J0wHreMgZy0SEPwlpYnoHRqQNWxznxJSijYFVZ0TUh3D-L6hHKhtoG3ae8Ci2rNX1IGHmj1FeFD4pe39BWIduJ1GtEqEo0ntj2NJWMUsU/s320/Land%20of%20Nephi%20map.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Land of Nephi in Tennessee</td></tr></tbody></table><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">This is an interesting point because the Native Americans "in the east" of the United States were the ones who lost their lands of possession and were smitten and scattered west, south and north. For them to be established again "in the east" would put them back in their lands of possession. This would explain why they are gathered from the west, north and south, but not the east.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The North American setting is also consistent with Isaiah 18:1-2, as I've previously discussed here:</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><a href="https://bookofmormonconsensus.blogspot.com/2016/02/isaiah-on-lehis-route-to-america.html" target="_blank">https://bookofmormonconsensus.blogspot.com/2016/02/isaiah-on-lehis-route-to-america.html</a></span></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">and here:</span></div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2017/03/the-land-shadowing-with-wings.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2017/03/the-land-shadowing-with-wings.html</a></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Back to Kirk.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">This means that the Lehite voyage sailed east from the Arabian Peninsula Bountiful. Nephi literally puts words into Isaiah's mouth to reflect the location of Lehi's posterity in the prophetic geography.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk repeats his assumption that Nephi changed Isaiah instead of quoting the original Isaiah, but more importantly, as we've seen, Kirk's interpretation is only one of several possible ones. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">In my view, if Nephi inserted "in the east" as a clue to his location, his readers would have inferred he meant east of Jerusalem but in the Old World. This seems obvious because both Nephi and Jacob emphasized that the "isle of the sea" was distinct and separate from the four quarters of the earth.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">Had Nephi written "in the east on an isle of the sea," Kirk's view would be more plausible.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">I find this analysis an excellent example of how the scriptures can be used to justify a variety of interpretations. </span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">And with this discussion and comparison of alternatives, now everyone can make up their own mind with a better informed decision.</span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Was it possible to sail west from Oman anciently? Yes. Philip Beale in his replica ship Phoenicia demonstrated that single masted square riggers ca. 600 BC could have circumnavigated Africa just as Herodotus said the Phoenicians did. On the south coast of Oman, prevailing winds are seasonal. Westerlies predominate part of the year, then easterlies the other part. See the blog articles "Where did the Mulekites land?" and "Pacific Winds and Currents."</span></div></div><div><br /></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">The Phoenicia, of course, demonstrated routes across the Atlantic that replicated plausible routes for both Lehi (circumnavigating Africa before crossing the Atlantic to North America) and Mulek (sailing west through the Mediterranean and across Atlantic), but that is a topic for another day!</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">:)</span></div></div></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">_____</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;">*</span><span style="color: #990000;">Note that Kirk doesn't mention, and therefore apparently did not even consider (let alone present), other possible routes. </span><span style="color: #990000;">For example, Lehi could have sailed south along the eastern coast of Africa, crossed the Atlantic, and then sailed up the west coast of South America. Even though this involves a south, west, and north voyage, they could still consider themselves "east" of Jerusalem because, as Kirk points out, east and west are relative terms (as we'll see below) and the Nephites would know the earth was round, having crossed the ocean(s). They could deem themselves "east" of Jerusalem even if they got there by sailing west. That is, if Central America really was "east" of Jerusalem.</span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-14886387766917456822024-03-11T17:43:00.000-07:002024-03-13T12:25:26.125-07:00Podcast on International Heartlanders; honey in Oman<p>Ward Radio released our interview about international Heartlanders.</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqy-y5ThBc" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jaqy-y5ThBc</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgaS6VpJm0IDLKg2e464fF2-jH34W9ArdhQTWnceXxtL5u3woFcpJmmAqSA33IALVOxMcUbJupeLid30qkE1bREhk8MUidDAnbZzEIaP5eT89RJYXIDsbeyYMa4JTqTQ2-iIT9PxrxrX1_LFMzfU-1fKjCsQB16QGjmur1sKLr3KAxGO1yynOIjh2JYCLA/s370/Podcast%20-%20ward%20radio%20-%20International%20Heartlanders.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="259" data-original-width="370" height="224" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgaS6VpJm0IDLKg2e464fF2-jH34W9ArdhQTWnceXxtL5u3woFcpJmmAqSA33IALVOxMcUbJupeLid30qkE1bREhk8MUidDAnbZzEIaP5eT89RJYXIDsbeyYMa4JTqTQ2-iIT9PxrxrX1_LFMzfU-1fKjCsQB16QGjmur1sKLr3KAxGO1yynOIjh2JYCLA/s320/Podcast%20-%20ward%20radio%20-%20International%20Heartlanders.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Ward Radio does a great job presenting multiple working hypotheses, which is the healthiest approach to these issues. I could have given more examples, and the comments show that viewers around the world know exactly what I was talking about.</p><p>I usually don't get a chance to comment on YouTube comments, but this time I did. One in particular surprised me. I'm posting it here instead of just writing to Jerry because he posted it on YouTube.</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">@jerrygrover8992 22 hours ago (edited)</span></p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">One big problem with statement that in Oman on the coast (likely Bountiful location) had honey harvested in the fall. It is NOT harvested in the fall.</span></p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In spring and early summer in Oman, most beekeepers hive their colonies in the Sarawat Mountains where several important bee plants, such as Acacia spp., Conyza spp., Lavandula spp., and Zilla spinosa, flower. In autumn and winter, the beekeepers move to the Tihama coastal region with the blooming of Ziziphus spina-christi, Acacia assak, Rhanterium eppaposum and Blepharis spp. (Sorry this site does not allow links to be posted or I would include the source). So honey production is basically year round in Oman, and again, since the Lehite group was more likely limited to the coast, the honey would have been harvested in the SPRING, not the autumn, again 100 percent contradicting the argument that he and other Heartlanders make that they caught the monsoon winds going to the south and thus had to go around Africa.</span></p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">He is actually MAKING THE ARGUMENT FOR A PACIFIC CROSSING! Any Pacific crossing would render the Heartland theory impossible.</span></p><p>Before I post my response, I emphasize that Jerry's awesome, a great guy and usually careful with sources. I don't know what happened here.</p><p>Because I was curious if I had overlooked something, either during my visit to Oman or during my research, I googled his quotation and only one source had his quotation, albeit with some significant differences. </p><p><i>Saudi J Biol Sci.</i> 2014 Jul; 21(3): 256–264.</p><p>Published online 2013 Nov 19. doi: 10.1016/j.sjbs.2013.10.007</p><p>PMCID: PMC4061414</p><p>PMID: 24955011</p><p>Performance evaluation of indigenous and exotic honey bee (Apis mellifera L.) races in Assir region, <b>southwestern Saudi Arabia </b>(emphasis added)</p><p>Abdulaziz S. Alqarni,a,∗ Hassan M. Balhareth,b and Ayman A. Owayssa</p><p><a href="https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4061414/" target="_blank">https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4061414/</a></p><p>Compare what Jerry wrote to the original article. Jerry's changes are in <b>bold</b>.</p><p>Jerry:</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In spring and early summer <b>in Oman</b>, most beekeepers hive their colonies in the Sarawat Mountains <b>where </b>several important bee plants, such as Acacia spp., Conyza spp., Lavandula spp., and Zilla spinosa, flower. In autumn and winter, the beekeepers move to the Tihama coastal region with the blooming of Ziziphus spina-christi, Acacia assak, Rhanterium eppaposum and Blepharis spp.</span></p></blockquote><p>The original article about Saudi Arabia.</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In spring and early summer, most beekeepers hive their colonies in the Sarawat Mountains while several important bee plants, such as Acacia spp., Conyza spp., Lavandula spp., and Zilla spinosa, flower. In autumn and winter, the beekeepers move to the Tihama coastal region with the blooming of Ziziphus spina-christi, Acacia assak, Rhanterium eppaposum and Blepharis spp. (Alqarni, 1995).</span></p></blockquote><p>The Tihama coastal region is along the Red Sea in Yemen and Saudi Arabia. It has no connection with Oman.</p><p><a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihamah" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tihamah</a></p><p>Here's my response to Jerry's YouTube comment:</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">@jonathann3d 17 minutes ago</span></p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Good question to discuss. But Jerry, your source (easy to google found at nih.gov) was discussing Saudi Arabia, not Oman. The Tihama coast is on the Red Sea. It's not clear why you inserted "in Oman" but anyone who looks can see the article is about Saudi Arabia. FWIW, we looked into this when we visited Salalah in Oman. Monsoons come between June and September. That's why they harvest fruit in the fall. "Oman's varied and unique weather helps to grow a large variety of plants, fruit trees and various crops throughout the year. Jabal Al Akhdar produces the maximum variety of fruits.... During September and October, Jabal Al Akhdar transforms into a fruit paradise with the full-blown goodness of luscious fruits." (easily found website) Modern bee culture likely differs somewhat from ancient, but they harvest honey year-round. Currently in Oman "There are two main types of honey: Sidr (ziziphus-spina-christi) and it is light coloured and flavoured honey, and Simr (Acacia tortilis), which is thick and dark honey. The Sidr season is in the winter (October-November) and the Simr season is in the summer during the months June-July." (easily found on youtube).</span></p><p>Here are two photos from my visit to Oman:</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqYELaxXBFStgl8IYpoIt9PeWp78B-IDu5Ow8YDooHL6Yo9liAEKmBwiml6Aj6xpoYpjwd43bbgDZwANXFP1AECfUBdMiCHVJX8GKh2oePn9Vod1JN96hpYtppoKLexfU2BaXgw35s-XE3-oUTKdldBua0fBSiD_zTniwe_8Sa973K_ksAN3JmNm5hGZY/s4032/JN%20in%20Oman%2020220219_095336.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2268" data-original-width="4032" height="180" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgqYELaxXBFStgl8IYpoIt9PeWp78B-IDu5Ow8YDooHL6Yo9liAEKmBwiml6Aj6xpoYpjwd43bbgDZwANXFP1AECfUBdMiCHVJX8GKh2oePn9Vod1JN96hpYtppoKLexfU2BaXgw35s-XE3-oUTKdldBua0fBSiD_zTniwe_8Sa973K_ksAN3JmNm5hGZY/s320/JN%20in%20Oman%2020220219_095336.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg5LNQVQZ2-MtlsKSyx234Lwi_bk8ocW_oWt7VHkZ8J6ZL4BXLwdeVeOouQwOcRI0AQ8UWGoglfMwENDhBY0u_d45Q0TcQInEFx7nWWh81NtYCY8br7ez-FRsaYC3wkj-mVMAA_MavCQ85LbiA-N9P-L2AGCnacTzmOKG7HfuswSMV7QASlKzIGczFRqt4/s4032/JN%20in%20Oman%2020220219_110507.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2268" data-original-width="4032" height="180" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEg5LNQVQZ2-MtlsKSyx234Lwi_bk8ocW_oWt7VHkZ8J6ZL4BXLwdeVeOouQwOcRI0AQ8UWGoglfMwENDhBY0u_d45Q0TcQInEFx7nWWh81NtYCY8br7ez-FRsaYC3wkj-mVMAA_MavCQ85LbiA-N9P-L2AGCnacTzmOKG7HfuswSMV7QASlKzIGczFRqt4/s320/JN%20in%20Oman%2020220219_110507.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><p>And a discussion:</p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2022/03/lehis-land-bountiful-in-oman.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2022/03/lehis-land-bountiful-in-oman.html</a></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-74127479340249995542024-03-09T08:17:00.000-08:002024-03-09T08:17:33.703-08:00Top 3 reasons why people leave<p>The SITH (stone-in-the-hat) and M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs) theories are based on the assumption that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery misled everyone about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. That's why certain LDS scholars who promote SITH and M2C avoid quoting what Joseph and Oliver taught on this topic and instead quote and discuss what <i>others </i>said. </p><p>So long as these LDS scholars insist on promoting SITH and M2C as the only acceptable interpretations of Church history and the text of the Book of Mormon, more Latter-day Saints will lose their faith, as yet another survey of former LDS shows.</p><p>Given that the Book of Mormon is the "keystone of our religion," this should come as no surprise.</p><h3 style="background-color: white; border: 0px; font-family: var(--sans); font-size: 1.2rem; margin: 0px 0px 1.5rem; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">6. Many say they left the church because of historical issues.</span></h3><p style="background-color: white; border: 0px; font-family: "PT Serif", serif; font-size: 1.15rem; line-height: 1.55; margin: 0px; padding: 0px 0px 1.5rem; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">The top three reasons for leaving in the 2023CFLDS were 1) history related to Joseph Smith; 2) Book of Mormon; and 3) race issues.</span></p><p><a href="https://religionnews.com/2024/03/07/who-is-leaving-the-lds-church-8-key-survey-findings/" target="_blank">https://religionnews.com/2024/03/07/who-is-leaving-the-lds-church-8-key-survey-findings/</a></p><p>And yet, apparently the authors were surprised. For this one survey response, the authors expressed skepticism, as if they hoped for a different answer:</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">However, Coates says he is somewhat skeptical, comparing these questions to asking divorced couples why their marriages failed. He says it’s difficult to know what potential conscious or unconscious biases are at play.</span></p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">“We think this portion of the survey is only useful in answering the question ‘What do former members prefer to respond when asked on a survey why they left?’” he said.</span></p><p>Obviously, <i>the entire survey</i> is only useful in answering the question "What do former members prefer to respond when asked questions on a survey?"</p><p>If Coates was "somewhat skeptical" about the answers to this question, he should have been "somewhat skeptical" about every answer on his survey.</p><p>But as we all know from talking with former LDS, seeing the online discussions and podcasts, and talking with active LDS who are wavering, SITH and M2C contribute to doubt because both theories undermine the reliability and credibility of Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery.</p><p>_____</p><p>When people cite Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon as the main reasons for leaving, they usually refer to (i) polygamy and (ii) the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.</p><p>We don't discuss polygamy on this blog, but we do discuss the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.</p><p>To repeat: So long as our scholars insist on promoting SITH and M2C as the only acceptable interpretations of Church history and the text of the Book of Mormon, more Latter-day Saints will lose their faith, as this survey shows.</p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-40326232169324046092024-03-08T08:14:00.000-08:002024-03-08T08:14:41.291-08:00Podcast: Two sets of plates<p>New podcast explains the two sets of plates:</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG4O3gyrTac&t=1968s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xG4O3gyrTac&t=1968s</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiw2jXpuzHWUo6ZHcjEtqRKXGeEI872UDIHBAGOW0yPc6jWMUDLBti0RIrKiFYiqfkFjbd3GOuc9ezW4LJClV-KQd3DC7w1eQ1OOxcmYogMnWY5bWPeT2ONnJ6leReaoc7cvGQ-5Wy7YBzJeNivtoeSTQ7dG-5P7z21IbslXCrFXFJMuid18WDNEfzJ-Mc/s555/Podcast-2%20sets%20of%20plates%20Stick%20of%20Joseph.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="391" data-original-width="555" height="225" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiw2jXpuzHWUo6ZHcjEtqRKXGeEI872UDIHBAGOW0yPc6jWMUDLBti0RIrKiFYiqfkFjbd3GOuc9ezW4LJClV-KQd3DC7w1eQ1OOxcmYogMnWY5bWPeT2ONnJ6leReaoc7cvGQ-5Wy7YBzJeNivtoeSTQ7dG-5P7z21IbslXCrFXFJMuid18WDNEfzJ-Mc/s320/Podcast-2%20sets%20of%20plates%20Stick%20of%20Joseph.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>written explanation:</p><p><a href="https://www.lettervii.com/p/the-two-sets-of-plates-schematic.html" target="_blank">https://www.lettervii.com/p/the-two-sets-of-plates-schematic.html</a></p><p>Graphic:</p><p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiq4l3KI3vBt0C417Vuc5Dd47lYtCTvt4ubpGl9xMcOKegraVEQpg9NuTBdUagLXTr1OoLAlkcxKXezRzdpfLYhgINLDyZgz5UxzKGszjaBYMb7EhCsbvo7OGCOoQ-RmoLNnlsl4xwPTqOlDxrc_Wtsw1AzbxYAjDLhZrvZGLHV_fR6TNLLJf1apVm3Je4" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img alt="" data-original-height="1127" data-original-width="1502" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiq4l3KI3vBt0C417Vuc5Dd47lYtCTvt4ubpGl9xMcOKegraVEQpg9NuTBdUagLXTr1OoLAlkcxKXezRzdpfLYhgINLDyZgz5UxzKGszjaBYMb7EhCsbvo7OGCOoQ-RmoLNnlsl4xwPTqOlDxrc_Wtsw1AzbxYAjDLhZrvZGLHV_fR6TNLLJf1apVm3Je4" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-74583764026690644142024-03-07T07:52:00.000-08:002024-03-07T07:52:35.495-08:00Levels of awareness<p>This post is modified from a <a href="https://bookofmormonconsensus.blogspot.com/2024/03/levels-of-awareness.html" target="_blank">twitter post</a> and cross-posted at <a href="https://nomorecontention.blogspot.com/2024/03/levels-of-awareness.html" target="_blank">https://nomorecontention.blogspot.com/2024/03/levels-of-awareness.html</a></p><p>The first step toward "no more contention" is clarity. That requires a high level of awareness, that, combined with charity and understanding, eliminates the underlying causes of contention.</p><p><span class="r-b88u0q" style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; font-weight: 700; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Levels of Awareness </span><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;">
Level 1
They believe what their preferred sources of information say and do not sample other sources. Not aware of counter arguments. Not aware their sources are mostly narrative with manipulated, incomplete facts.
Level 2
Sample material from multiple sources but believe only the sources that confirm their own biases are accurate. Think the other side is all narrative, but at least familiar with all sides of issues.
Level 3
Aware that ALL sources are narrative, at least in the sense of spin, missing context, conflating assumptions and inferences with facts, etc. Also known as Gell-Mann Amnesia*. But still believe the experts in various fields are usually correct.
Level 4
Understand that NONE of our experts are reliable. Some might be right, but none can be trusted without verification. The distortion of money, reputation, pride, motivated reasoning, bias confirmation, and cognitive dissonance makes no expert credible.</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Level 5</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;">Apply the FAITH model to isolate and assess Facts, Assumptions, Inferences, Theories, and finally Hypotheses. The FAITH model reveals the origin of multiple working hypotheses by clarifying the intellectual ancestry of beliefs and narratives.</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;">_____</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, "Segoe UI", Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;">*<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Crichton" target="_blank">Gell-Mann Amnesia</a>: </span><span style="color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;">the phenomenon of experts reading articles within their fields of expertise and finding them to be error-ridden and full of misunderstanding, but seemingly forgetting those experiences when reading articles in the same publications written on topics outside of their fields of expertise, which they believe to be credible.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"></span></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkxZR90qNYteUlR_UbXrQHzTbffoJzhtmzMQmuuoYhJgFMRvWRtwBTLeQ_a8XooSnperGV6VJsoN9BhePsibyXddG2WYQNUSC7unGauYDmEY3axavZmr5XfY46kKp_k-0zUSe6eCjqousixCFjTAI64bxGTMguqFqLOxzVcX9BJELJo9-B9-FvKaVisQE/s1080/Awareness%20levels.jpeg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="675" data-original-width="1080" height="200" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjkxZR90qNYteUlR_UbXrQHzTbffoJzhtmzMQmuuoYhJgFMRvWRtwBTLeQ_a8XooSnperGV6VJsoN9BhePsibyXddG2WYQNUSC7unGauYDmEY3axavZmr5XfY46kKp_k-0zUSe6eCjqousixCFjTAI64bxGTMguqFqLOxzVcX9BJELJo9-B9-FvKaVisQE/s320/Awareness%20levels.jpeg" width="320" /></a></span></div><span style="color: #0f1419; font-family: TwitterChirp, -apple-system, BlinkMacSystemFont, Segoe UI, Roboto, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;"><br /><span style="font-size: 17px; white-space-collapse: preserve;"><br /></span></span><p></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-78272542567764843892024-03-07T07:19:00.000-08:002024-03-07T07:19:14.093-08:00Revised post from Monday<p>In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, I revised my post from Monday, March 4, 2024, that discussed the terms "continent" and "country."</p><p>The revised post is here:</p><p><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2024/03/kirk-magleby-and-i-discuss-continent.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2024/03/kirk-magleby-and-i-discuss-continent.html</a></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-41160526979450007192024-03-06T07:22:00.000-08:002024-03-06T10:06:43.421-08:00SITH: LDS scholars vs. the real world<p>Here is yet another example of the disconnect between the intellectuals who promote SITH (and M2C) and the real-world members of the Church who have to deal with the SITH narrative in the real world.</p><p>Book of Mormon Central (BMC) recently released a short video about the Book of Mormon.</p><p><a href="https://www.facebook.com/reel/2277727142434053" target="_blank">https://www.facebook.com/reel/2277727142434053</a></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhqgO7zeaVjIRP3NbQpsDRLbWvqUl6gQOp09_e9GfiQwJSzJZaC8H-cJ47TtsVB_OPkY1IVa0Wu6kqJBUvvSvrCodiRW0LAf8nb655JAqziHZMBM705MM9hvGgONDXrl3iM71TiRsmUfvJKT5c1E3Ft9oqWINMHQzjoqLR3S9DEDebcAmtovWKfNLKGmas/s730/BMC%20showing%20SITH.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="730" data-original-width="426" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhqgO7zeaVjIRP3NbQpsDRLbWvqUl6gQOp09_e9GfiQwJSzJZaC8H-cJ47TtsVB_OPkY1IVa0Wu6kqJBUvvSvrCodiRW0LAf8nb655JAqziHZMBM705MM9hvGgONDXrl3iM71TiRsmUfvJKT5c1E3Ft9oqWINMHQzjoqLR3S9DEDebcAmtovWKfNLKGmas/s320/BMC%20showing%20SITH.jpg" width="187" /></a></div>The video includes four elements:<p></p><p>1. Joseph dictating from a stone in the hat (SITH), with no mention or depiction of the Urim and Thummim.</p><p>2. The BYU/BMC fantasy map of Book of Mormon geography that teaches the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory (M2C).</p><p>3. Mesoamerican costumes, settings, weapons, etc. that teach M2C.</p><p>4. The translation timeline that ignores what Joseph said (that he resumed translating in the fall of 1828) as well as D&C 5:30.</p>All of this would be fine if these scholars mitigated the SITH and M2C problems by acknowledging other relevant historical facts about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, but they don't.<div><br /></div><div>BMC is "all in" on both SITH and M2C.</div><div><p>Now, let's consider the real world.</p><p>_____</p><p>By now, most faithful Latter-day Saints can relate a story such as the one in this video, which someone sent me. We all know someone (usually many people) who lost their faith because of the SITH narrative. That's why critics keep emphasizing SITH. It's a major impediment to missionary work as well.</p><p>Granted, she has a snarky, self-satisfied attitude, doesn't give names, and could have made up the entire story, or at least embellished it.</p><p>But that doesn't matter.</p><p><b>Our Church historians have enabled this type of narrative by favoring late, second-hand, hearsay statements over the direct, contemporary explanations from Joseph and Oliver.</b></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi9Saa57OPCCGWtgHa6ZlOOfJUxRh0y-JVRFaiBLPtTAPpWi6pW5_Uqcg7yoCTDVhXfOkQZqaz8NAob0ryPabOS5JcuKe1d6i4t1LHjJHlIFf8OgMDAxqtso0aSBFsOoyhAJ2SGOIsEyDUWKRoPuWAxiRZBww3vWm8suXu84_HcRa8-mr7_HEA-MZVdDCw/s214/E%20Holland%20calls%20SITH%20a%20lie.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="204" data-original-width="214" height="204" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi9Saa57OPCCGWtgHa6ZlOOfJUxRh0y-JVRFaiBLPtTAPpWi6pW5_Uqcg7yoCTDVhXfOkQZqaz8NAob0ryPabOS5JcuKe1d6i4t1LHjJHlIFf8OgMDAxqtso0aSBFsOoyhAJ2SGOIsEyDUWKRoPuWAxiRZBww3vWm8suXu84_HcRa8-mr7_HEA-MZVdDCw/s1600/E%20Holland%20calls%20SITH%20a%20lie.jpg" width="214" /></a></div><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIFfFcCxhLM" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIFfFcCxhLM</a></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjuMrk3-4W9QPV7G2zz7dL4YYWPn0qJiS0oqfoi9heFqi4lbvgHJuu2lat6FB75mZM98Yb_hi3-2YM_0HPRc1f0FkcT0B4hvtB8LUL8nilRNfYlRSZecpccnRZmtDJ8-tASUNtU9ldT8d6o11-9Wv9QxBkdC_5Uy_6Hgbk1Ddl6kjK7vwZ6UYbvC_uHVac/s1065/SITH%20account%20Faith%20Unraveled.jpg" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="640" data-original-width="1065" height="192" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjuMrk3-4W9QPV7G2zz7dL4YYWPn0qJiS0oqfoi9heFqi4lbvgHJuu2lat6FB75mZM98Yb_hi3-2YM_0HPRc1f0FkcT0B4hvtB8LUL8nilRNfYlRSZecpccnRZmtDJ8-tASUNtU9ldT8d6o11-9Wv9QxBkdC_5Uy_6Hgbk1Ddl6kjK7vwZ6UYbvC_uHVac/s320/SITH%20account%20Faith%20Unraveled.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p><b>An alternative to SITH: simply apply basic principles of historical analysis. </b></p><p><b>But both critics and faithful Latter-day Saint historians refuse to do so. </b></p><p><b>_____</b></p><p>From the outset of the Restoration, SITH was a problem. In 1829, even before the Book of Mormon was published, Jonathan Hadley wrote a derogatory article that was widely circulated, in which he claimed Joseph put "spectacles" in a hat and read words to his scribe. Some LDS scholars cite this article as evidence of SITH!</p><p><a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/10/update-on-jonathan-hadley-and-sith.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/10/update-on-jonathan-hadley-and-sith.html</a></p><p>In the Preface to the <b>1830 </b>Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith denounced the "false reports" of Hadley's SITH narrative, explaining that <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"<b>I translated</b>, by the gift and power of God, and caused to be written, one hundred and sixteen pages, <b>the which I took from the Book of Lehi</b>." </span><span style="background-color: white;">Nothing in the Preface suggests, implies, or even accommodates the claim that Joseph read words off a stone (or spectacles) in a hat.</span></p><p>In response to the persistent SITH allegations in the 1834 book <i>Mormonism Unvailed</i>, Joseph and Oliver twice explained the U&T in the <b>1834-5</b> <i>Messenger and Advocate</i>, an account that Joseph had his scribes copy into his journal and that was republished in the <i>Gospel Reflector</i>, the <i>Times and Seasons</i>, the <i>Millennial Star</i>, <i>The Prophet,</i> and the <i>Improvement Era.</i> </p><p>But their account was never published in the <i>Ensign </i>or the <i>Liahona</i>. It probably never will be.</p><p><b>Consequently, most Latter-day Saints will never know about it.</b></p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">He said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and </span><b style="color: #2b00fe;">translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.</b></blockquote><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69</a></div><div><br /></div><div>Fortunately, another excerpt from this account was added as a note to JS-H 1:71 so the scholars can't completely ignore it. But good luck finding this quoted in <i>Saints </i>or the Gospel Topics Essay. </div><div><br /></div><div>Actually, the Gospel Topics Essay <i>edited the note to <u>omit </u>the portion in <b>bold </b>below!</i></div><div><br /></div><div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">“These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, <b>awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites should have said, “Interpreters,” the history, or reccord, called “the book of Mormon."</b></span></blockquote><p><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/50" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/50</a></p></div><p>Because the SITH rumors persisted, for the <b>1835 </b>Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph edited what is now D&C 10:1 to clarify that he had the power to translate "by the means of the Urim and Thummim." He also added D&C 17 which explained that the witnesses would have a view of "the Urim and Thummim" along with other artifacts related to the Book of Mormon. No "seer stone" was included among the evidences of the Book of Mormon.</p><p>In <b>1838</b>, Joseph set out several oft-asked questions in the <i>Elders' Journal</i>. Joseph answered the question about the Book of Mormon directly, clearly, and unambiguously. This should be the starting place for any discussion of the translation, but the SITH scholars never quote it.</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon?</span></p><p class="MsoNormal"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Answer. <b>Moroni</b>, the person who <b>deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon was translated</b>, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. <b>I obtained them and</b> <b>the Urim and Thummim</b> <b>with them,</b> <b>by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.</b></span></p></blockquote><p><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10</a> </p><p class="MsoNormal"><o:p></o:p></p><p>The Gospel Topics Essay on Translation (GTE) actually includes a citation to the <i>Elders' Journal</i> in note 19, but only regarding Joseph's answer to whether he was a "money digger." The GTE<i> completely ignores what Joseph said about the translation</i>, even though Joseph's explanation quoted above is on the same page as the "money digger" answer! Here again, the historians deliberately omitted what Joseph said about the translation.</p><p><span style="background-color: white;">In </span><b style="background-color: white;">1841</b><span style="background-color: white;">, the Church history essays were republished in the </span><i style="background-color: white;">Times and Seasons</i><span style="background-color: white;"> and the other Church magazines.</span></p><p>Then, in the <b>1842 </b>Wentworth letter, Joseph reiterated the point. This, too, is missing from the GTE.</p><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">With the records was found a curious instrument which the ancients called “Urim and Thummim,” which consisted of two transparent stones set in the rim of a bow fastened to a breastplate. Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God.</span></p></blockquote><p><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2</a> </p><p>In <b>1844</b>, Joseph's brother William Smith, a member of the Quorum of the Twelve, republished the Church history essays yet again, this time in the New York newspaper called <i>The Prophet</i>.</p><p>For over a century, Joseph's contemporaries and successors in church leadership reiterated what Joseph and Oliver taught about the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.</p><p>None of those accounts are included, except for one misleading excerpt, in the Gospel Topics Essay or the <i>Saints </i>book. See, e.g., <a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/gospel-topics-essay-on-translation.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/gospel-topics-essay-on-translation.html</a></p><p>Even in the March 2024 <i>Liahona</i>, an article that purports to relate what Joseph said about the translation omits these references (except for a brief misleadingly edited excerpt from the Wentworth letter). <a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html</a></p><p><b>Instead, our Church historians quote from Emma Smith's dubious "Last Testimony" and David Whitmer's antagonistic "Address to All Believers in Christ," both published 50 years after the event.</b></p><p>And then Book of Mormon Central, which claims to "build enduring faith in Jesus Christ by illuminating the Book of Mormon and other restoration scripture, making them more accessible, defensible and comprehensible to people everywhere," promotes SITH and M2C. </p><p>No wonder so many people have problems with the self-appointed scholars who teach SITH and M2C.</p></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-82929050423326654142024-03-05T08:05:00.000-08:002024-03-05T08:05:23.638-08:00A medium or light roast?<p>It's all relative.</p><p><a href="https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4CMXT9JO6C/?igsh=MzB1Y2szdXE0czcz" target="_blank">https://www.instagram.com/reel/C4CMXT9JO6C/?igsh=MzB1Y2szdXE0czcz</a></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-33023887642435749252024-03-04T18:59:00.000-08:002024-03-08T09:55:12.328-08:00Kirk Magleby and I discuss "continent" and "country"<h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #2a33d5; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #333333; font-size: 13px;">[Note: this is a revised version of a previous post on this topic from this date.]</span></h3><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #2a33d5; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #333333; font-size: 13px;"><br /></span></h3><h3 class="post-title entry-title" itemprop="name" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #2a33d5; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-feature-settings: normal; font-kerning: auto; font-optical-sizing: auto; font-size: 22px; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: normal; font-variant-east-asian: normal; font-variant-numeric: normal; font-variant-position: normal; font-variation-settings: normal; font-weight: normal; line-height: normal; margin: 0px; position: relative;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #333333; font-size: 13px;">On January 21, 2024, my friend Kirk Magleby, a wonderful guy and a careful scholar, also an executive at Scripture Central under the title "</span><a href="https://scripturecentral.org/team/executive-team" style="color: #2a33d5; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">Chief Evangelist</a><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #333333; font-size: 13px;">," posted a blog about "this continent and this country." </span></h3><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-3897758515381678311" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">In addition to being a great person and faithful Latter-day Saint, Kirk is one of the more rational M2Cers (promoters of the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory of Book of Mormon geography). He started his post by writing</p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">"<span style="color: #2b00fe;">Some people in the Church cite Joseph Smith in an attempt to locate Book of Mormon lands in what is today the United States of America."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">The link: <a href="https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/2024/01/this-continent-and-this-country.html?m=1" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://bookofmormonresources.blogspot.com/2024/01/this-continent-and-this-country.html?m=1</a></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">People asked for my comments. Kirk raised an important issue so I agreed to discuss his points in the interest of clarity, charity and understanding (<a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>).</p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"> As I understand it, the gist of Kirk's argument is that when Joseph Smith's "1838" history says "an account of the former inhabitants of this continent," Joseph intended to refer to the entire western hemisphere, not to North America or to what was then the United States as is claimed by unnamed "people" in the Church. </p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Kirk's argument is difficult to follow, partly because he doesn't quote/cite the "people" whose argument he addresses so we don't have anything but Kirk's characterization of their supposed claim to assess, making his argument a straw man, and partly because the way he frames his argument inverts both the historical record and the rationale for citing Joseph in the first place.</p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">The best way to assess Kirk's perspective is by quoting his post with my response along the way.</p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Kirk's original post in <span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b>blue</b></span>, my comments in <span style="color: #990000;"><b>red</b></span>, external quotations in <b><span style="color: #38761d;">green</span></b>.</p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">_____</p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Sunday, January 21, 2024</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><b>This Continent and This Country</b></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Some people in the Church cite Joseph Smith in an attempt to locate Book of Mormon lands in what is today the United States of America. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Although Kirk neither identified which "people" he refers to nor quotes what they've allegedly said or written, we'll assume he is accurately representing the position taken by the unnamed people. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">On its face, though, it seems rational to me for Latter-day Saints to inquire what Joseph Smith had to say about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In his 1838 history, Joseph describes his initial visit with the Angel Moroni and recites what Moroni told him: "He said there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of this continent, and the source from whence they sprang." "This continent," the people claim, means North America.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">The first obvious point is</span><span style="color: #990000;"> that the term "continent" encompasses any countries or smaller political subdivisions found within it. Thus, even if the term "continent" includes the entire western hemisphere as Kirk claims, by definition it also includes North America, the USA, the state of New York, the township of Manchester, and Joseph Smith's boyhood home. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">IOW, the "former inhabitants" of western New York are also former inhabitants of this continent, whether by "continent" one means North America, the western hemisphere, or merely a piece of land.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk forgot to give a link or even a citation to his quotation from the "1838 history," but we assume he means <i>History, circa June 1839-circa 1841</i>, which was not written by Joseph Smith but compiled by his scribes. The very passage Kirk quotes includes the famous scribal error: "He called me by name and said unto me that he was a messenger sent from the presence of God to me and that his name was Nephi."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-june-1839-circa-1841-draft-2/5" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-circa-june-1839-circa-1841-draft-2/5</a></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">With the scribes making such an obvious error (which, btw, Joseph didn't notice when he was supposedly editing the <i>Times and Seasons</i> in 1842 when this history was first published), it hardly seems reasonable to parse this history for detailed word choice and attribute that word choice to Joseph Smith.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Secondly, Kirk also got a little ahead of himself here because he also forgot to tell his readers that the "1838" history was not the first official published history of the Restoration. That distinction belongs to a series of eight essays, written by President Oliver Cowdery (Assistant President of the Church) with the explicit assistance of Joseph Smith and published in 1834-5. The fourth essay, titled "Letter IV" because the essays were published as letters in the <i>Messenger and Advocate</i>, was more detailed about Moroni's visit. Note the bolded parts.</span></p><blockquote style="border: none; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #38761d;">He then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a <b>history of the aborigenes of this country</b>, and said they were literal descendants of Abraham. He represented them as once being an enlightned and intelligent people, possessing a correct knowledge of the gospel, and the plan of restoration and redemption. He said <b>this history was written and deposited not far from that place</b>, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.</span></p></blockquote><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/68" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/68</a></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">In this history, we can all see that Moroni told Joseph the Book of Mormon gave </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"a history of the aborigines <u>of this country</u>"</span><span style="color: #990000;"> and that the </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"history was written and deposited not far from"</span><span style="color: #990000;"> Joseph's home near Palmyra, New York, USA. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">BTW, note that Moroni said "this history was written and deposited" near Palmyra, NY. Any suggestion that the history was written in Mesoamerica and then hauled thousands of miles to New York directly contradicts what Moroni told Joseph Smith. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Regarding the credibility of President Cowdery's history, he wrote from his own personal knowledge and from the personal knowledge of Joseph Smith, as he explains in the text. The history was originally published in the 1835 <i>Messenger and Advocate. </i>Shortly thereafter, Joseph's scribes copied into his journal as part of his life story, where we can all read it today in the Joseph Smith Papers at the link above. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Joseph personally approved the republication of this history in the <i>Gospel Reflector</i> and <i>Times and Seasons</i>. Parley P. Pratt republished it in the <i>Millennial Star</i>. Joseph's brother William republished it in <i>The Prophet</i>. Joseph F. Smith republished it in the <i>Improvement Era</i>.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Let's return to Kirk's focus on the language in the "1838 history."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Noah Webster's 1828 American Dictionary of the English Language says otherwise. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk forgot to give the citation, so here it is.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><a href="https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/continent" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/continent</a></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Anyone can read this and see there are multiple connotations of the term "continent." Webster says Britain is a continent instead of an island. Webster also points out that </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"In Spenser, continent is use for ground in general,"</span><span style="color: #990000;"> making the term equivalent to "place" or "area of land."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In Joseph Smith's day, all of the Americas were considered a single continent, the "Western continent."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Ironically, Kirk's favored authority, Parley P. Pratt whom he cites below, distinguished between North and South America in the very text Kirk quotes and cites, but Kirk forgot to quote that part of Pratt's book, as we'll see below.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">This was a perpetuation of the idea expressed by Ephraim Chambers in his 1727 Cyclopaedia that there were two grand continents, "the Old and the New." Emanuel Bowen in his 1752 atlas repeated this idea that Europe, Asia, and Africa were a single continent "as America is another." So, to Joseph Smith in 1838, "this continent" likely meant the Americas, the Western hemisphere.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">First, as we've seen, Joseph didn't write "this continent." That was his scribes' doing. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Second, the usage was not so definitive as Kirk claims, based on his two citations from the 1700s. When questions about terminology arise, I like to consult the Palmyra newspapers. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Everyone interested in early Church history should be familiar with these newspapers.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Among many examples, the <i>Wayne Sentinel</i>, published in Palmyra, included an article on April 14, 1826, that referred to South America as its own continent. </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"South America is not yet free from the effusion of human blood... There is but one instance on the whole <b>southern continent of America</b> of regal dominion, and that is but half legitimate."</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Another article from Dec. 17, 1823, refers to "the American continents," plural: </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"a principle in which the rights and interests of the United States are involved, that <b>the American continents</b>, by the free and independent condition which they have assumed and maintain, are henceforth not to be considered as subjects for future colonization by any European powers."</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">On Dec. 7, 1827, and article says, </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"It is probable that many on<b> the continent of Greece</b>, who had submitted to the Turks, may be again encouraged to take up arms."</span><span style="color: #990000;"> This usage fits the Webster's definition of "ground in general." </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Again, March 17, 1824, "this continent" means the United States: </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"when our interior seas shall have a population on their shores equal to that of the borders of the Mediterranean--when our whole territory between the Atlantic and the Pacific shall be filled with enterprising, generous, free and happy inhabitants, there will be found no spot in <b>the interior of this continent</b>, presenting more motives to industry, more business or more wealth, than the shores of the Niagara."</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">An article dated Dec 29, 1824, reported a speech by the Speaker of the House of Representatives to Gen. La Fayette, who was visiting. Again, "this continent" refers to the United States. </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"General, your present <b>visit to the United States</b> is a realization of the consoling object of that wish. You are in the midst of posterity... In one respect you behold us unaltered, and that is in the sentiment of continued devotion to liberty, and of ardent affection and profound gratitude to your departed friend, the father of his country, and to you, and to your illustrious associates... This sentiment, now fondly cherished by <b>more than ten millions of people</b>, will be transmitted, with unabated vigor, down the tide of time, through the countless millions who are destined to <b>inhabit this continent</b>, to the latest posterity."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">[Note: the 1820 US census reported 9,638,453 people, showing that the Speaker referred to the United States as "this continent."]</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 4px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiY-zAYKbfhGcbsh72DLswKKHtPUPlUbUgySN3E5isAJF5Qt0jGtlFCS2Xtaq2HwItkf_JuWGgfNut8rVnlaS9Zx7EymXZPhCJqnEdKuMk86F5g4lPSC0r5druRR4z8pL9xo52ZBFP0Tfqwz70GSR0QVng32JuAYL9epVxL9AeTkKcZHMfbIT6WQJo6yyA/s456/Wayne%20Sentinel%20Dec%2029%201824.jpg" style="color: #2a33d5; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" data-original-height="456" data-original-width="297" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiY-zAYKbfhGcbsh72DLswKKHtPUPlUbUgySN3E5isAJF5Qt0jGtlFCS2Xtaq2HwItkf_JuWGgfNut8rVnlaS9Zx7EymXZPhCJqnEdKuMk86F5g4lPSC0r5druRR4z8pL9xo52ZBFP0Tfqwz70GSR0QVng32JuAYL9epVxL9AeTkKcZHMfbIT6WQJo6yyA/s320/Wayne%20Sentinel%20Dec%2029%201824.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="208" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.4px; text-align: center;"><span style="background-color: #0f4880; color: white; font-family: "Libre Baskerville", serif; font-size: 12px;">Wayne Sentinel, published in Palmyra, New York <br />on Wednesday, December 29th, 1824</span></td></tr></tbody></table><br /><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #990000; font-size: 13px;">Let's look again at Kirk's claim:</span><div style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;"><br /></span></div><div style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">So, to Joseph Smith in 1838, "this continent" likely meant the Americas, the Western hemisphere.</span><br /></span><p></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">When viewed through the lens of the newspapers Joseph grew up with, Kirk's assertion about the definition of "continent" is mere bias confirmation based on his carefully selected excerpts from a couple of references from the early and mid 1700s. Readers can decide which is more relevant: the Palmyra newspapers Joseph grew up with, or a couple of texts from the early and mid 1700s that Joseph unlikely ever saw.</span></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">Third, regardless of how selected authors in the 1700s used the term "continent," we can easily see how the terms were used not only during Joseph's lifetime and in his own community,</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span><b style="color: #990000;">but by Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery specifically</b><span style="color: #990000;">. Returning to</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span><i style="color: #990000;">History,1834-6</i><span style="color: #990000;">, we see a clear distinction between "country" and "continent." These can be seen by searching the full transcript here:</span></p><p><span style="color: #990000;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69#full-transcript" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/69#full-transcript</a></span></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">This first section below includes all the uses of the two terms in Oliver's history of the Church. </span><span style="color: #990000;">Readers can see for themselves how the terms "continent" and "country" were used in <i>History 1834-6</i>. </span></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">Although Oliver referred to </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"this continent"</span><span style="color: #990000;"> three times when referring to events of the Book of Mormon generally, he showed that Moroni specifically referred to the aborigines of </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"this country"</span><span style="color: #990000;"> and that the term "country" meant both the "free country" where the Priesthood was restored and the local "country" of western New York and Pennsylvania, depending on context. </span></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">As we saw above, saying something happened on "this continent" is not inconsistent with saying it happened in "this country" because the country is located within the continent. But saying something happened in "this country" confines it to a setting smaller than the entire continent, whether one deems that continent to be the hemisphere or North or South America.</span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- After writing the account given of the savior’s ministry to the remnant of the seed of Jacob, upon <b>this continent</b>, it was easily to be seen, as the prophet said would be, that darkness covered the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. </span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- I believe that the twelve upon this <b>continent</b>, whom the Lord chose to preach his gospel, when he came down to manifest to this branch of the house of Israel, [p. 78] that he had other sheep, who should hear his voice, were also permitted to behold the same mighty things transpire in vision before their eyes;</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- A history of the inhabitants who peopled this <b>continent</b>, previous to its being discovered to Europeans by Columbus, must be interesting to every man</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- ... till God took the holy priesthood unto himself where it has been held in reserve to the present century, as a matter of right [p. 51] in this free <b>country</b>, I may take the privilege.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- He then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this <b>country</b></span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- He says, Your <b>country </b>is desolate, your cities are burnt with fire:</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- I will bring them from the north <b>country</b>, and gather them from the coasts of the earth</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- You are acquainted with the mail road from Palmyra, Wayne Co. to Canandaigua, Ontario Co. N.Y. and also, as you pass from the former to the latter place, before arriving at the little village of Manchester, say from three to four, or about four miles from Palmyra, you pass a large hill on the east side of the road. Why I say large, is because it is as large perhaps, as any in that <b>country</b>. To a person acquainted with this road, a description would be unnecessary, as it is the largest and rises the highest of any on that route.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the <b>country</b>, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- The hill of which I have been speaking, at the time mentioned, presented a varied appearance: the north end rose suddenly from the plain, forming a promontory without timber, but covered with grass. As you passed to the south you soon came to scattering timber, the surface having been cleared by art or by wind; and a short distance further left, you are surrounded with the common forest of the <b>country</b>.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- I have now given sufficent on the subject of the hill Cumorah—it has a singular and imposing appearance for that <b>country</b>, and must ex[c]ite the curiosity curious enquiry of every lover of the book of Mormon: </span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- the ten tribes of Israel will be revealed in the north <b>country</b>, whither they have been for a long season</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- Soon after this visit to Cumorah, a gentleman from the south part of the State, (Chenango County,) employed our brother as a common laborer, and accordingly he visited that section of <the> <b>country</b>; and had he not been accused of digging down all, or nearly so the mountains of Susquehanna, or causing others to do it by some art of nicromancy, I should leave this, for the present, unnoticed.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- where a company of Spaniards, a long time since, when the <b>country </b>was uninhabited by white settlers, excavated from the bowels of the earth ore, and coined a large quantity of money</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- A long time elapsed and this account came from one of the individuals who was first engaged in this <mining> buisness. The <b>country </b>was pointed out and the spot minutely described. </span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- On the private character of our brother I need add nothing further, at present, previous to his obtaining the records of the Nephites, only that while in that <b>country</b>, some verry officious persons complained of him as a disorderly person, and brought him before the authorities of the <strike>country </strike><b>county</b>; but there being no cause of action he was honorably acquited.</span></p></div></blockquote><div style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><p><span style="color: #990000;">Also in History 1834-6, some entries from Joseph's journal.</span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- 30 November 1835 • Monday</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">Monday morning 30th. The snow continues falling and is already sufficiently deep to make good sleighing This is uncommon for this <b>country</b>, at this season of the year.</span></p></div><div><p><span style="color: #38761d;">- And we were led to marvle at the longsuffering, and great condesention of our Heavenly Father, in permitting these ungodly wretches to possess this goodly land, which is indeed as beautifully situated, & and its soil as fertile, as any in this region of <b>country</b>, and its inhabitants wealthy,</span></p></div></blockquote><div><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Beginning about 1850 some atlases published in the US began separating North America and South America into two different continents, joined by the Isthmus of Darien known today as Panama. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="color: #990000;">None of this matters because, as we've seen, the 1820s Palmyra newspapers themselves distinguished between North and South America, as did Parley Pratt in the very book Kirk quotes and cites below.</span></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">The 1850 Webster's Dictionary, published after the great lexicographer's death, continued to reference the "Western continent" and the "Eastern continent." Almost all European atlases published in the 19th century identified the Americas as a single continent, although some of them began separating Europe, Asia, and Africa into three different continents. Some American atlases published as late as the 1920's continued to show a single American continent. By the 1950's, geographers worldwide decided that North America and South America were two different continents and that modern notion continues today. See the blog article entitled "North America."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">As we saw, even in 1828 Webster defined Great Britain as a "continent" instead of an island. And, of course, everyone agrees that a "country" is a subset of a "continent."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">But again we ask, what relevance are these published reference books when we can see exactly how Joseph and Oliver, specifically, and their local environment generally, used the terms?</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">The people's line of reasoning continues that Joseph Smith's "this continent" in 1838 was refined to "this country" in his Wentworth Letter first published on March 1, 1842. This famous letter, that contains the original Articles of Faith, says "I was also informed concerning the aboriginal inhabitants of this country and shown who they were and from whence they came..." </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Again, because Kirk forgot to cite any such "line of reasoning" we can't tell if he invented this straw man argument, but it doesn't matter because inverted his chronology.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk forgot about the 1834-6 history that included President Cowdery's history. The Wentworth letter did not "refine" the "1838" history. Instead, it borrowed from Orson Pratt's 1840 pamphlet, which in turn borrowed from President Cowdery's history.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">This is obvious when we compare the two.</span></p><blockquote style="border: none; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><p><span style="color: #990000;">President Cowdery, 1835: </span></p><p><span style="color: #38761d;">[Moroni] g</span><span style="color: #38761d;">ave a </span><b style="color: #38761d;">history of the aborigenes of this country</b></p><p><span style="color: #990000;">Wentworth letter, 1842: </span></p><p><span style="color: #38761d;">I was also informed concerning the <b>aboriginal inhabitants of this country</b></span></p></blockquote><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Chronologically, the "1838" history is an anomaly composed by Joseph's scribes, but because the "aborigines of this country" also live "on this continent" there is no conflict at all.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Because we're discussing Joseph's use of the term "country" in the Wentworth letter, it might appear odd that Kirk didn't quote Webster's 1828 definition of "country," but if you look at it, you'll see why. None of the definitions include "continent." To the contrary, all of the definitions fit within the alleged argument by the "people" Kirk complains about because they rely on what Joseph wrote.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">After all, Joseph, writing from Nauvoo, Illinois, was writing to Mr. Wentworth who was living in Chicago, Illinois. Both were in the same state, region, and nation, all of which fit the definition of "country."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">And notice that Webster used scriptural references to support his definitions.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;"><a href="https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/country" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://webstersdictionary1828.com/Dictionary/country</a></span></p></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">COUNTRY, noun [Latin , land adjacent to a city. Hence the citizen says, let us go into the country The Latin has conterraneus, a countryman.] </span></span></p></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">1. Properly, the land lying about or near a city; the territory situated in the vicinity of a city. Our friend has a seat in the country a few miles from town. See Mark 5:1. Luke 8:26. Hence,</span></span></p></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">2. The whole territory of a kingdom or state, as opposed to city. We say, the gentleman has a seat in the country at any distance from town indefinitely. Hence,</span></span></p></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">3. Any tract of land, or inhabited land; any region, as distinguished from other regions; a kingdom, state or lesser district. We speak of all the countries of Europe or Asia.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">And they came into the country of Moab. Ruth 1:1.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">4. The kingdom , state or territory in which one is born; the land of nativity; or the particular district indefinitely in which one is born. America is my country or Connecticut is my country</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Laban said, it must not be so done in our country Genesis 29:26.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">5. The region in which one resides.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">He sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country Hebrews 11:9.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">6. Land, as opposed to water; or inhabited territory.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">The shipmen deemed that they drew near to some country Acts 27:27.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">7. The inhabitants of a region.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">All the country wept with a loud voice. 2 Samuel 15:23.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">8. A place of residence; a region of permanent habitation.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">They declare plainly that they seek a country Hebrews 11:9.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">They desire a better country a heavenly. Hebrews 11:9.</span></span></p></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">There's another aspect of the Wentworth letter Kirk forgot to quote and discuss. In a section of the Wentworth letter that many Latter-day Saints don't know about because it was censored in the lesson manual <i>Teachings of Presidents of the Church--Joseph Smith</i>, Joseph explained that </span></p></div></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><div><p style="text-align: left;"><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #38761d;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. <b>The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country.</b></span></span></p></div></div></blockquote><div class="post-body entry-content" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586.222px;"><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2</a></span></span></p><p style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">[To see how this passage was censored from the lesson manual, go to this site and look for the ellipses. </span></p><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng" target="_blank">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng</a>]</span></span></p><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">This passage from the Wentworth letter helps explain why Kirk is so adamant that Joseph did not mean any of Webster's definitions when he used the term "country." If the remnant of the Nephites/Lamanites are actually the Indians that no inhabit this country, meaning Illinois, the area around Illinois, or the area from Missouri to New York as stated in D&C 28, 30 and 32, then we have to reassess the M2C theory. This is particularly meaningful when we compare the Wentworth letter to Orson Pratt's 1840 pamphlet, as I've done here:</span></span></p><p><span face="Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif" style="color: #990000;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="https://www.lettervii.com/p/wentworth-letter-vs-orson-pratt-pamphlet.html" target="_blank">https://www.lettervii.com/p/wentworth-letter-vs-orson-pratt-pamphlet.html</a></span></span></p><p style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Back to Kirk's post:</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">1838 this continent = North America, 1842 this country = United States of America. Voila, the Book of Mormon happened in the good ol US of A, or so they claim.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Surely if Kirk hadn't inverted the history because he forgot about the 1835 history, or if he had looked up Webster's definition of "country," he wouldn't have made this straw man argument.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Except that one of Joseph Smith's close associates published a book in 1839 and used the phrase "this country" to refer to Mexico and Guatemala in addition to the US. This is what Parley P. Pratt said in the 1839 second edition of his widely-circulated A Voice of Warning: "We might fill a volume with accounts of American Antiquities, all going to show that this country has been peopled with a people, who possessed a knowledge of the arts and sciences; who built cities, cultivated the earth, and who were in possession of a written language." </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk's misreading of Pratt is easily shown by simply quoting from Pratt. Kirk forgot to provide a link, but this one works:</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><a href="https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35554/pg35554-images.html" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/35554/pg35554-images.html</a></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Before looking at Kirk's quotation, let's look at the opening line of the book, which was Pratt's "Preface to the first American edition."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 16px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">PREFACE</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 16px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">TO THE FIRST AMERICAN EDITION.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; text-align: justify; text-indent: 16px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">During the last nine years, the public mind has been constantly agitated, more or less, through all parts of <b>our country</b>, with the cry of "Mormonism, Mormonism, Delusion, Imposture, Fanaticism," etc., chiefly through the instrumentality of the press. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Is there any serious basis for arguing that in Pratt's preface to the first American edition he meant to claim that, in 1837 when Pratt wrote this edition, the anti-Mormon literature was agitating the public mind "through all parts of the Western Hemisphere" as Kirk wants us to believe?</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Neither the Book of Mormon nor any literature had been translated into Spanish or Portuguese at that point. It was an American edition of Pratt's book, after all. It wasn't until 1846 that Pratt published a second European edition. So far as I know, although Pratt served a mission in Chile in 1851-2, he never published a Spanish edition of his book for Latin America. The first translation of the Book of Mormon into Spanish was in 1874 and consisted only of selections.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Pratt continues by referring to the "history of our country."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Having said so much to impress upon the human mind the necessity of hearing, and then judging, I would only add, that the object of this publication is to give the public correct information concerning a religious system, which has <b>penetrated every State from Maine to Missouri</b>, as well as the Canadas, in the short space of nine years; organizing Churches and Conferences in every region, and gathering in its progress from fifty to a hundred thousand disciples; having, at the same time, to sustain the shock of an overwhelming, religious influence, opposed to it by the combined powers of every sect in America. What but the arm of Omnipotence could have moved it forward amid the rage of mobs? having to contend with the prejudice of the ignorant and the pen of the learned; at war with every creed and craft in Christendom; while the combined powers of earth and hell were hurling a storm of persecution, unparalleled in the <b>history of our country</b>.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Pratt wrote about specific countries in antiquity. He also wrote about the United States specifically as a country.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Now, in order to come at this subject in plainness, let us examine the constitution of earthly governments in regard to the authority and laws of adoption. We will say, for instance, the President of the United States writes a commission to A. B., duly authorizing him to act in some office in the government, and, during his administration, two gentlemen from Europe come to reside <b>in this country</b>, and, being strangers and foreigners wishing to become citizens, they go before A. B., and he administers the oath of allegiance in due form, and certifies the same, and this constitutes them legal citizens, entitled to all the privileges of those who are citizens or subjects by birth. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">To be sure, Pratt used the term loosely as well. This is an example of why context matters.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">When the Lord confounded the languages at Babel, he led forth a colony from thence to<b> the Western Continent, which is now called America.</b> This colony, after crossing the ocean in eight vessels, and landing in that <b>country</b>, became, in process of time, a great nation—<b>they inhabited America</b> for some fifteen hundred years. They were at length destroyed for their wickedness, about six hundred years before Christ. A prophet by the name of Ether wrote their history, and an account of their destruction.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Ether lived to witness their entire destruction, and deposited his record where it was afterwards found by a colony of Israelites, who came from Jerusalem six hundred years before Christ, and <b>re-peopled America.</b> This last colony were the descendants of the tribe of Joseph; they grew and multiplied, and finally gave rise to two mighty nations. One of these nations was called Nephites—one Nephi being their founder; the other was called Lamanites, after a leader of the name Laman.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">The Lamanites became a dark and benighted people, <b>of whom the American Indians are still a remnant.</b> </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">As I mentioned above, this is an interesting observation that Joseph modified in the Wentworth letter, where he replaced Orson Pratt's extensive speculation about the Indians in Central America with the observation that the </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/2</a></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Pratt also wrote about Cumorah before quoting his brother Orson, who in turn was quoting Cowdery. Note that Pratt points out the hill was called Cumorah in AD 420, consistent with what Lucy Mack Smith said, as corroborated by Joseph Smith in D&C 128:20.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Previous to his death, the abridged records fell into the hands of his son Moroni, who continued them down to A. D. 420; at which time he deposited them carefully in the earth, <b>on a hill which was <u>then </u>called Cumorah</b>, but is situated in Ontario County, township of Manchester, and State of New York, North America. This he did in order to preserve them from the Lamanites, <b>who overran the country</b>, and sought to destroy them and all the records pertaining to the Nephites. This record lay concealed, or sealed up, from A. D. 420 to September 22, 1827, at which time it was found by Mr. Joseph Smith, jun., he being directed thither by an angel of the Lord.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Not even Kirk makes the argument that the Lamanites overran the entire Western Hemisphere. Obviously Pratt claims the Lamanites overran the "country" in and around Cumorah in western New York.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Because Kirk promotes M2C, he naturally thinks Pratt was wrong about this. Maybe next time he cites this book he will acknowledge that <b>he rejects what Pratt said about Cumorah</b>.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Pratt writing about one country:</span></p><p id="id00216" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.4em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 1em; text-align: justify; text-indent: 1em;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Let it be understood, this city of Otolum, the ruins of which are so immense, is <b>in North, not South America,</b> in the same latitude with the island of Jamaica, which is about eighteen degrees north of the equator, being on the highest ground between the northern end of the Caribbean Sea and the Pacific Ocean, where the continent narrows towards the Isthmus of Darien, and is about eight hundred miles south of New Orleans.</span></p><p id="id00217" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.4em; margin-bottom: 0px; margin-top: 1em; text-align: justify; text-indent: 1em;"><span style="color: #38761d;">The discovery of these ruins, and also of many others, equally wonderful, <b>in the same country,</b> is just commencing to arouse the attention of the schools of Europe, which hitherto have denied that America could boast of her antiquities.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">First, note how Pratt distinguished between North and South America. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Second, Kirk's quotation appears in the next section of Pratt's text, when Pratt is writing about another country: the United States.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">The part Kirk quoted is in blue below. Readers can decide whether Kirk accurately represented, in context, what Pratt wrote.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">A gentleman who was living <b>near the town of Cincinnati</b>, in 1826, on the upper level, had occasion to sink a well for his accommodation; he persevered in digging to the depth of eighty feet, without finding water; but still persisting in the attempt, his workmen found themselves obstructed by a substance, which resisted their labor, though evidently not stone. They cleared the surface and sides from the earth bedded around it, when there appeared the stump of a tree, three feet in diameter, and two feet high, which had been cut down with an ax. The blows of the ax were yet visible. It was nearly of the color and apparent character of coal, but had not the friable and fusible quality of that substance. Ten feet below, the water sprang up, and the well is now in constant supply and high repute.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">In Morse's Universal Geography, first volume, p. 142, the discovery of the stump is corroborated: "In digging a well in Cincinnati, the stump of a tree was found in a sound state, ninety feet below the surface; and in digging another well, at the same place, another stump was found, at ninety four feet below the surface, which had evident marks of the ax; and on its top there appeared as if some iron tool had been consumed by rust."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">We might fill a volume with accounts of <b>American </b>antiquities, all going to show that <b>this country</b> has been inhabited by a people who possessed a knowledge of the arts and sciences, who built cities, cultivated the earth, and who were in possession of a written language.</span><span style="color: #2b00fe;"> </span><span style="color: #38761d;">But the things which we have here introduced are abundantly sufficient for our purpose. If a few characters in Hebrew have been found in the earth in America, written on parchment, then it is just as easy to admit that a whole volume has been found in the earth in America, written on plates, in Egyptian characters. The astonishing facts of the stumps found eighty or ninety feet under ground <b>at Cincinnati, and similar discoveries in many other parts of North and South America</b>, such as buried cities, and other antiquities, all go to prove that there has been a mighty convulsion and revolution, not only of nations, but of nature; and such a convulsion as is nowhere else so reasonably accounted for, as in the following extraordinary and wonderful account of events, which transpired in this <b>country</b>, during the crucifixion of Messiah, which we extract from the Book of Mormon, Nephi, v, 2-11:</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Pratt himself distinguished between <i>continent </i>and <i>country</i> in this passage:</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #38761d;">When I read the Book of Mormon, it informs me, that while Christ was crucified among the Jews, this <b>whole American continent </b>was shaken to its foundation, that many cities were sunk, and waters came up in their places; that the rocks were all rent in twain; that mountains were thrown up to an exceeding height; and that other mountains became valleys; the level roads spoiled, and the whole face of the land changed. I then exclaim, These things are no longer a mystery; I have now learned to account for the many wonders, which I everywhere behold, throughout <b>our whole country</b>. </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Pratt obviously had not traveled throughout the continent (whether one infers North America or the Western Hemisphere). But he recognized that "our whole country" is part of the "this whole American continent."</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Pratt's star "antiquity" was the ancient Maya site known today as Palenque which is located in Chiapas, Mexico. For Pratt, Palenque was in "this country." This makes it likely that Joseph's use of "this country" in 1842 was intended to convey the same meaning as his use of "this continent" in 1838 and Pratt's use of "this country" in 1839.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">For all the reasons we've discussed above, Kirk's claim about the likelihood of Joseph's use of "this country" in the Wentworth letter contradicts (i) Webster's dictionary, (ii) common usage in Joseph's time, and (iii) usage by Joseph and Oliver in their writings. It is mere wishful thinking on his part. Plus, we've shown that Joseph's language in the Wentworth letter incorporated Moroni's language as reported by Oliver Cowdery in 1835.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Next, Kirk inserted a photo of the cover of Pratt's book.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"></span></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; margin-bottom: 0.5em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; padding: 4px; position: relative;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgWkPzdhsdGUYd3Sh0BtsxdZclhL0gaBUbqnUuEewtKq0D_CGVteB-tPDO4UHG6vRwuNiz2tCuzvayCG0N6BTy2-HXJ3NmZO-C5BwukcmBFL5LuycmlsEzcAkgEO0wZWy1QWuBUGYtWiIflkbk-Qadaaz_gntT_sZi8Kv6v4AB2eW3jbxCF6xsivpRRcoM" style="color: #2a33d5; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto; text-decoration-line: none;"><img alt="" data-original-height="923" data-original-width="549" height="240" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgWkPzdhsdGUYd3Sh0BtsxdZclhL0gaBUbqnUuEewtKq0D_CGVteB-tPDO4UHG6vRwuNiz2tCuzvayCG0N6BTy2-HXJ3NmZO-C5BwukcmBFL5LuycmlsEzcAkgEO0wZWy1QWuBUGYtWiIflkbk-Qadaaz_gntT_sZi8Kv6v4AB2eW3jbxCF6xsivpRRcoM" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="143" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="font-size: 10.4px; text-align: center;">Parley Parker Pratt<br />A Voice of Warning<br />2nd Edition 1839</td></tr></tbody></table><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"></p><br /><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">People who insist that 19th century phrases such as "this continent" and "this country" must be interpreted with modern meanings are guilty of the logical fallacy of presentism.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">Kirk's "presentism" argument is another straw man. It's the opposite of "presentism" to refer to newspapers in 1820s Palmyra, to refer to Joseph's own journal, to refer to Webster's 1828 dictionary, etc. We've seen examples from the very source Kirk quoted, Parley P. Pratt, that the terms had varying usage depending on context.</span><span style="color: #2b00fe;"> </span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">All in all, this is not just a tempest in a teapot. It's an important issue that has circulated for years and now, finally, I hope we've reached clarity on the facts, as well as our respective assumptions, inferences, theories, and hypotheses (the FAITH model).</span></p><p style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">I offer these comments in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding. </span><span style="color: #990000;">I like Kirk personally and admire his convictions and tenacity. </span><span style="color: #990000;">We all give Kirk and other M2Cers the benefit of the doubt as we seek to understand their positions, and we're fine with them believing whatever they want.</span></p><p style="font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">But we hope that the clarity provided in this post helps everyone make informed decisions about what Joseph wrote and what he meant.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #990000;">You decide.</span></p><p style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Captain Kirk at 11:59 PM </span></p></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-37115871637285571422024-03-03T20:11:00.000-08:002024-03-03T20:11:54.907-08:00Presentation on Jonathan Edwards<p>I'm doing an online presentation Monday evening, March 4, 2024, at 7 pm Mountain time, on this topic:</p><p>"Enhancing understanding of the BoM through intertextuality-- KJV and Jonathan Edwards"</p><p>In addition to a brief introduction and overview to the topic, I'll be discussing the nonbiblical intertextual database that's now available on Kindle.</p><p>Anyone interested can email me at lostzarahemla@gmail.com for the link.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhWgIXgrj_ZbWVpV4dgOqwh-VibOcaly8cTnk1FW72WkxP7_f6pnGRSk2Y3zqu2N78877k4zBLoyIBxaa2uavio1BE903m43szr5xVfjUUb7h2YlDsyVw60DaNfL6T95NHKu7lOxezFxeU7BqXV7WDWqf6tT0GMGRa4f70bK8zgPc21iy_C1cYSYgQk4I8/s2775/Infinite%20Goodness%20Kindle%20Cover3b%20jn%20OR%20cropped.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2775" data-original-width="1931" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhWgIXgrj_ZbWVpV4dgOqwh-VibOcaly8cTnk1FW72WkxP7_f6pnGRSk2Y3zqu2N78877k4zBLoyIBxaa2uavio1BE903m43szr5xVfjUUb7h2YlDsyVw60DaNfL6T95NHKu7lOxezFxeU7BqXV7WDWqf6tT0GMGRa4f70bK8zgPc21iy_C1cYSYgQk4I8/s320/Infinite%20Goodness%20Kindle%20Cover3b%20jn%20OR%20cropped.jpg" width="223" /></a></div><br /><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-1656556304467289942024-03-01T11:38:00.001-08:002024-03-01T11:38:32.487-08:00March Liahona: Gerrit Dirkmaat almost gets there<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhkCm_D3nZwmUXmjr_NuE838POj1PlNnVRcGrOGAItnCV_iVoynF4ZgO07C3wxEd5D4nhVB6NNM8fX16h14s-x26RxoxegmF3j8atrPiQyzeJM3HaqFWM700JRhN0Rs0P8d-FQzSWAnkKbB_tUL3NQyrAeZBAufm1JErdCFfAUIrRfVhEhsbkXBNEajCVI/s242/Liahona%20March%202024.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="242" data-original-width="156" height="242" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhkCm_D3nZwmUXmjr_NuE838POj1PlNnVRcGrOGAItnCV_iVoynF4ZgO07C3wxEd5D4nhVB6NNM8fX16h14s-x26RxoxegmF3j8atrPiQyzeJM3HaqFWM700JRhN0Rs0P8d-FQzSWAnkKbB_tUL3NQyrAeZBAufm1JErdCFfAUIrRfVhEhsbkXBNEajCVI/s1600/Liahona%20March%202024.jpg" width="156" /></a></div>In this post, we'll discuss the first of two articles published in the US/Canada section of the March 2024 <i>Liahona</i>. <div><br /></div><div><div>"The Miraculous Translation of the Book of Mormon" by Gerrit Dirkmaat, PhD, Associate Professor of Church History and Doctrine, Brigham Young University</div><div><p><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/03/united-states-and-canada-section/02-the-miraculous-translation-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng" target="_blank">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/03/united-states-and-canada-section/02-the-miraculous-translation-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng</a></p></div><div>Gerrit is an awesome individual, a truly professional scholar and historian, and an exemplary Latter-day Saint. The article makes some steps toward improved accuracy about historical sources. Specifically, Gerrit Dirkmaat started by asking, "What Do the Scriptures Say about the Translation?" </div><div><br /></div><div><div><b>He almost gets there.</b></div><div><br /></div><div><b>But he couldn't quite go all the way to accurately quoting the scriptures. </b></div></div><div><br /></div><div>Instead, he edited the first scripture he cited to change the meaning, and he didn't cite other relevant scriptures, but at least he started with scriptures. That's a step in the right direction.</div><div><br /></div><div>Next, he asked, "What Did Joseph Smith Say about the Translation Process?"</div><div><br /></div><div>In note 8, he actually cited “Answers to Questions,” <i>Elders’ Journal</i>, July 1838, 43." </div><div><br /></div><div><div><b>Again, he almost gets there.</b></div><div><br /></div><div><b>But he couldn't quite go all the way to actually quoting what Joseph said, thereby depriving readers of the complete and accurate Church history regarding this event.</b></div><div><br /></div><div>This is a persistent puzzle. How could any faithful account of the translation omit what Joseph Smith specifically said? Yet the <i>Saints </i>book, the Gospel Topics Essays, and this very article deprive readers of Joseph's teaching.</div><div><br /></div><div>I commend Gerrit for this small step toward correcting one of the more egregious oversights in previous publications. He at least included this important reference in his article (note 8), but in a practical sense the reference remains opaque because he did not provide links so people can find the references. </div><div><br /></div><div>Why not just quote what Joseph said?</div><div><br /></div><div>Fixing those problems would significantly improve the article and better educate readers.</div><div><br /></div><div>Even better, how about taking this small step further by fixing the <i>Saints </i>book and the Gospel Topics Essay electronically in all the languages? </div><div><br /></div><div>It seems unfair to Latter-day Saints who don't read English to have this small correction available only to readers of the <i>Liahona </i>in the United States and Canada.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Still better: fixing the <i>Saints </i>book, the Gospel Topics Essay, and this article and then republishing them in all the languages with links to the original sources.</b></div></div><div><b><br /></b></div><div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div>We assume that these articles were editorially pruned for space restrictions. Yet certain tangential sources were quoted at length while other core sources (particularly Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery) were truncated or omitted entirely. </div><div><p>For a detailed analysis of each article, go to </p></div></div><div><div><p><a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html</a></p><p>Here, we will look at a few highlights after a short explanation of why I'm posting these comments.</p><p>_____</p></div><div>We all recognize and appreciate the diligent, professional historians who have assembled, compiled, organized, and presented the voluminous historical record of the Restoration, particularly those who have worked with the Joseph Smith Papers. </div><div><p>In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding (<a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>), we have all been blessed by the world-class accuracy and reliability of the historical content in the Joseph Smith Papers.</p><p>For some time now we've also hoped that more accurate and complete information about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon would be made available to the Latter-day Saints around the world. For non-English speakers, the historical references are difficult to access. Few have been translated. Consequently, new, young and non-English speaking Latter-day Saints necessarily rely on a handful of materials, including the <i>Saints </i>books and the Gospel Topics Essays, for accurate information.</p><p>We've previously discussed the way the <i>Saints </i>book (Vol. 1) was written to accommodate the SITH (stone-in-the-hat) and M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs) agendas instead of to inform readers about the authentic historical record regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. E.g., <a href="https://saintsreview.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-historians-explain-censorship-in.html" target="_blank">https://saintsreview.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-historians-explain-censorship-in.html</a></p><p>We've also discussed how the Gospel Topics Essays on Book of Mormon Translation and Geography were written to accommodate the same agendas. For example, it's unthinkable that an essay on the translation of the Book of Mormon would omit what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said about the topic, but everyone can read the essay and see for themselves. E.g., <a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/gospel-topics-essay-on-translation.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/gospel-topics-essay-on-translation.html</a></p><p>Even the editorial content of the Joseph Smith Papers accommodates these agendas. E.g., <a href="https://www.academia.edu/67756647/Agenda_driven_editorial_content_in_the_Joseph_Smith_Papers" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/67756647/Agenda_driven_editorial_content_in_the_Joseph_Smith_Papers</a></p><p>Thus, there is room for improvement, as we've discussed many times on this blog. This post encourages such improvement in accuracy in the editorial content of ancillary materials, in this case the <i>Liahona </i>magazine.</p><p>Another consideration: In my view, the way this article and related materials are edited (such as using ellipses to change meanings and providing obscure citations without links) seems to contravene basic principles of the Standard of Professional Conduct from the American Historical Association, such as this one:</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Professional integrity in the practice of history requires <b>awareness of one’s own biases </b>and a readiness to follow sound method and analysis wherever they may lead. Historians should document their findings and be prepared to <b>make available their sources, evidence, and data</b>, including any documentation they develop through interviews. Historians should not misrepresent their sources. They should report their findings as accurately as possible and <b>not omit evidence that runs counter to their own interpretation.</b></span><b> </b></p><p><a href="https://www.historians.org/jobs-and-professional-development/statements-standards-and-guidelines-of-the-discipline/statement-on-standards-of-professional-conduct" target="_blank">https://www.historians.org/jobs-and-professional-development/statements-standards-and-guidelines-of-the-discipline/statement-on-standards-of-professional-conduct</a> </p><p>Hopefully we can all do better in the future.</p><p>_____</p><p></p><br />Now let's turn to the first article, "The Miraculous Translation of the Book of Mormon" by Gerrit Dirkmaat, PhD.</div><div><div><br /></div><div><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgl7cHj3TTESXmuh7fAv0vb4ZBQyTm2OiXVQ1eYUt2wU0lG7VV9xDqmn2MLZ7RRGuvTn_gUpZZ6CcTV5Xwd0XgxrIiRx6RJYOshRdFjs3WkdLiuJ2IUNe2FZCW9iRmGcP7AglqLN4RHy5mTeR5IbmdF7YwcNBoTBCWivjjlLs-xqZfhRlK17REANWkf81U/s271/Let's%20Talk%20about%20the%20Translation%20cover.jpg" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="271" data-original-width="164" height="200" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgl7cHj3TTESXmuh7fAv0vb4ZBQyTm2OiXVQ1eYUt2wU0lG7VV9xDqmn2MLZ7RRGuvTn_gUpZZ6CcTV5Xwd0XgxrIiRx6RJYOshRdFjs3WkdLiuJ2IUNe2FZCW9iRmGcP7AglqLN4RHy5mTeR5IbmdF7YwcNBoTBCWivjjlLs-xqZfhRlK17REANWkf81U/w121-h200/Let's%20Talk%20about%20the%20Translation%20cover.jpg" width="121" /></a></div>Dr. Dirkmaat seems to be the "go-to" authority in the Church on the translation of the Book of Mormon. With Michael MacKay, he wrote the recent book <span style="background-color: #fff9ee; color: #222222; font-family: Georgia, serif; font-size: 11.5pt;"><i>Let’s Talk about the Translation of the Book of Mormon," </i>published by Deseret Book.</span> <p></p><p>This is the book that starts with a creative narrative about Jonathan Hadley and the origins of SITH, as we discussed here:</p><p><a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/10/update-on-jonathan-hadley-and-sith.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2023/10/update-on-jonathan-hadley-and-sith.html</a></p><p>It's also the book which, on page 26, subtly edited JS-H 1:62 to <b>delete </b>Joseph's explanation that "<span style="color: #2b00fe;">by means of the Urim and Thummim I translated some of them,"</span> referring to the characters he copied from the plates. Instead, the book actually claims that <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"it was God who delivered the words of the Book of Mormon to him. This implies that Joseph had not identified which words of the translation corresponded to the characters on the gold plates."</span> (page 50)</p><p>Unbelievable.</p><p>The article in the <i>Liahona </i>edits the scriptures in similar fashion, as I detailed in the post at ldshistoricalnarratives, linked above.</p><p>I mentioned above that the article cited, but did not quote, what Joseph wrote in the <i>Elders' Journal.</i></p><div class="body-block" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p data-aid="158752957" id="p2" style="--height: 172.78125px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 0.889em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span>This is the type of pseudo-transparency that leaves readers misinformed. While it's nice to see the citation in a note, why, in a section that asks what Joseph said about the translation, would an article omit Joseph's specific statement on the topic?</span></p><p data-aid="158752957" id="p2" style="--height: 172.78125px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 0.889em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span>Like with the Wentworth letter, we can only infer that Joseph's response in the </span><span>July 1838 edition of the <i>Elders' Journal</i>, pages 42-43</span><span>, is too clear and unambiguous to accommodate the SITH theory that Joseph used a seer stone he found in a well.</span></p></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="body-block" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p data-aid="158752957" id="p2" style="--height: 172.78125px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 0.889em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the book of Mormon?</span></p></div><div class="body-block" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p data-aid="158752957" id="p2" style="--height: 172.78125px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 0.889em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #38761d;">Answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the book of Mormon was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me, and told me where they were; and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them,<b> and the Urim and Thummim with them; by the means of which, I translated the plates</b>; and thus came the book of Mormon.</span></p></div></blockquote><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px;"><div class="body-block" style="background-color: white; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: inherit; margin: 0px; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><p data-aid="158752957" id="p2" style="--height: 172.78125px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: inherit; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 0.889em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #38761d;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/questions-and-answers-8-may-1838/1" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/questions-and-answers-8-may-1838/1</a></span></p></div></blockquote><p>I've heard that some historians dismiss this statement on the ground that Joseph was just being concise and didn't want to get into the details of SITH. Others suggest that Joseph was embarrassed by the SITH narrative. Whatever the reason for omitting Joseph's answer, historians owe it to readers to explain their decision.</p><p>_____</p><p>Some of the other editorial decisions in the article seem designed mainly to accommodate SITH. </p><p>On one hand, the article omits some scriptures about the Urim and Thummim. On the other hand, it spends considerable time focusing on Alma 37 and the Gazelem passage. </p><p>On one hand, the article omits what Joseph and Oliver said, but on the other hand, it emphasizes the dubious statements from Emma Smith and David Whitmer.</p><p>Specifically, it is very strange how eager Gerrit and other LDS historians are to quote from David's screed against Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and the "Utah" church. Notice that David Whitmer himself rejected the claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, which anyone can read on page 4 of his pamphlet that this article quotes from. I included that excerpt in my review on ldshistoricalnarratives.</p><p>_____</p><p><br /></p></div></div></div></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-89806851651576711622024-03-01T11:38:00.000-08:002024-03-01T11:38:19.212-08:00March Liahona: Mark Ashurst-McGee almost gets there<p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6iYfOCJFXTaFfswa2ZGC6N8VcuzCF8MMp4yt49XRXsBpnHRKkhSSgUw28RMIPcOpzMOKV-g2hkZyQhDhd2bvnt6S9YZIiTozJJxWqXoKAe9NijJtAKHxvgi_fk3lbHL24epQ3qbx-YXFb3WgxjQvGYOPfZCJ_UrfI_ER9QJK0MeP8fEz-PSbXWrk5q0M/s242/Liahona%20March%202024.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="242" data-original-width="156" height="242" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj6iYfOCJFXTaFfswa2ZGC6N8VcuzCF8MMp4yt49XRXsBpnHRKkhSSgUw28RMIPcOpzMOKV-g2hkZyQhDhd2bvnt6S9YZIiTozJJxWqXoKAe9NijJtAKHxvgi_fk3lbHL24epQ3qbx-YXFb3WgxjQvGYOPfZCJ_UrfI_ER9QJK0MeP8fEz-PSbXWrk5q0M/s1600/Liahona%20March%202024.jpg" width="156" /></a></div>In this post, we'll discuss the second article published in the US/Canada section of the March 2024 <i>Liahona</i>. <p></p><p>"Witnesses of the Gold Plates of the Book of Mormon," by Mark Ashurst-McGee, Senior Historian, Joseph Smith Papers Project, Church History Department</p><p><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/03/united-states-and-canada-section/03-witnesses-of-the-gold-plates-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng" target="_blank">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/liahona/2024/03/united-states-and-canada-section/03-witnesses-of-the-gold-plates-of-the-book-of-mormon?lang=eng</a></p><div>Mark is an awesome individual, a truly professional scholar and historian, and an exemplary Latter-day Saint. The article makes some steps toward improved accuracy about historical sources. Specifically, Mark Ashurst-McGee avoids the "Mary Whitmer met Moroni" narrative by quoting and citing some of the original sources. </div><div><br /></div><div>In that sense, this is a big improvement over the <i>Saints </i>book, <i>BYU Studies</i>, and Book of Mormon Central. </div><div><br /></div><div><b>Mark almost gets there.</b></div><div><br /></div><div><b>But he couldn't quite go all the way to educating readers about the complete and accurate Church history regarding this event.</b></div><div><br /></div><div>I commend Mark for this small step toward correcting one of the more egregious fictional narratives in the <i>Saints </i>book. He at least included some important references in his article (note 15), but in a practical sense the references remain opaque because he did not provide specific citations for specific quotations and did not provide links so people can find the references.</div><div><br /></div><div>Fixing those problems would significantly improve the article and better educate readers.</div><div><br /></div><div>Even better, how about taking this small step further by fixing the <i>Saints </i>book electronically in all the languages? </div><div><br /></div><div>It seems unfair to Latter-day Saints who don't read English to have this small correction available only to readers of the <i>Liahona </i>in the United States and Canada.</div><div><br /></div><div><b>Still better: fixing both the <i>Saints </i>book and this article and then republishing both in all the languages with links to the original sources.</b></div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div><div>We assume that these articles were editorially pruned for space restrictions. Yet certain tangential sources were quoted at length while other core sources (particularly Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery) were truncated or omitted entirely. </div><div><p>For a detailed analysis of both articles, go to </p><p><a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/02/march-2024-liahona-articles-on.html</a></p><p>Here, we will look at a highlight after a short explanation of why I'm posting these comments.</p><p>_____</p></div></div><p></p><p>We all recognize and appreciate the diligent, professional historians who have assembled, compiled, organized, and presented the voluminous historical record of the Restoration, particularly those who have worked with the Joseph Smith Papers. </p><p>In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding (<a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>), we have all been blessed by the world-class accuracy and reliability of the historical content in the Joseph Smith Papers.</p><p>For some time now we've also hoped that more accurate and complete information about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon would be made available to the Latter-day Saints around the world. For non-English speakers, the historical references are difficult to access. Few of these sources have been translated. Consequently, new, young and non-English speaking Latter-day Saints necessarily rely on a handful of materials, including the <i>Saints </i>books and the Gospel Topics Essays, for accurate information.</p><p>We've previously discussed the way the <i>Saints </i>book (Vol. 1) was written to accommodate the SITH (stone-in-the-hat) and M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs) agendas instead of to inform readers about the authentic historical record regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. E.g., <a href="https://saintsreview.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-historians-explain-censorship-in.html" target="_blank">https://saintsreview.blogspot.com/2018/10/the-historians-explain-censorship-in.html</a></p><p>We've also discussed how the Gospel Topics Essays on Book of Mormon Translation and Geography were written to accommodate the same agendas. For example, it's unthinkable that an essay on the translation of the Book of Mormon would omit what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery said about the topic, but everyone can read the essays and see for themselves. E.g., <a href="https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/gospel-topics-essay-on-translation.html" target="_blank">https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/gospel-topics-essay-on-translation.html</a></p><p>Even the editorial content of the Joseph Smith Papers accommodates these agendas. E.g., <a href="https://www.academia.edu/67756647/Agenda_driven_editorial_content_in_the_Joseph_Smith_Papers" target="_blank">https://www.academia.edu/67756647/Agenda_driven_editorial_content_in_the_Joseph_Smith_Papers</a></p><p>Thus, there is room for improvement, as we've discussed many times on this blog. This post encourages such improvement in accuracy in the editorial content of ancillary materials, in this case the <i>Liahona </i>magazine.</p><p>Another consideration: In my view, the way this article and related materials are edited (such as using ellipses to change meanings and providing obscure citations without links) seems to contravene basic principles of the Standard of Professional Conduct from the American Historical Association, such as this one:</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Professional integrity in the practice of history requires <b>awareness of one’s own biases </b>and a readiness to follow sound method and analysis wherever they may lead. Historians should document their findings and be prepared to <b>make available their sources, evidence, and data</b>, including any documentation they develop through interviews. Historians should not misrepresent their sources. They should report their findings as accurately as possible and <b>not omit evidence that runs counter to their own interpretation.</b></span><b> </b></p><p><a href="https://www.historians.org/jobs-and-professional-development/statements-standards-and-guidelines-of-the-discipline/statement-on-standards-of-professional-conduct" target="_blank">https://www.historians.org/jobs-and-professional-development/statements-standards-and-guidelines-of-the-discipline/statement-on-standards-of-professional-conduct</a> </p><p>Hopefully we can all do better in the future.</p><p>_____</p><p>Here's an excerpt of my discussion of the way Mark discusses the Mary Whitmer account of seeing the plates. It's refreshing that he uses some original sources and doesn't default to the "Moroni" narrative.</p><div>But he edited David Whitmer's account to avoid incorporating David's explanation!</div><div><br /></div><div>Original article in <b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">blue</span></b>, my comments in <span style="color: #990000;"><b>red</b></span>, original sources in <span style="color: #38761d;"><b>green</b></span>.</div><div><br /></div><div><p class="kicker" data-aid="158752948" id="kicker1" style="--height: 86.390625px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.778em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Her son David said that “she was met out near the yard by [an] old man.” </span></span></p><p class="kicker" data-aid="158752948" id="kicker1" style="--height: 86.390625px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.778em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span><span style="color: #990000;">This is amazing editing that misleads readers. The original reference (cited only generally in note 15, which includes no links to these obscure references that have never been translated into other languages) reads, "</span></span><span><span><span style="color: #38761d;">Sometime after this, my mother was going to milk the cows, when she was met out near the yard <b>by the same old man</b> (judging by her description of him)."</span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></span></span></p></div><div><p class="kicker" data-aid="158752948" id="kicker1" style="--height: 86.390625px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.778em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #990000;">Contrary the implication in the article, was not merely "<b>an </b>old man" but "<b>the same</b> old man" whom David saw along the road to Fayette. David reported that the man was the messenger who had the plates, so this is another important witness of the reality of the plates that the article omits.</span></p><p class="kicker" data-aid="158752948" id="kicker1" style="--height: 86.390625px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.778em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span><span><span style="color: #990000;">This encounter is important because Edward Stevenson reported this during his interview with David: </span><span style="color: #38761d;">"Shortly afterwards, David relates, the Prophet looked very white but with a heavenly appearance and s<b>aid their visitor was one of the three Nephites </b>to whom the Savior gave the promise of life on earth until He should come in power."</span></span></span><span style="color: #990000;"> </span></p><p class="kicker" data-aid="158752948" id="kicker1" style="--height: 86.390625px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.778em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #990000;">The article lists Stevenson's account as a reference in note 15, but again without a link, making it difficult for anyone to read the full account. The article also inexplicably omits Mary Whitmer identification of the messenger as "Brother Nephi," which is consistent with Joseph's identification.</span></p><p class="kicker" data-aid="158752948" id="kicker1" style="--height: 86.390625px; border: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; font-feature-settings: inherit; font-kerning: inherit; font-optical-sizing: inherit; font-stretch: normal; font-variant-alternates: inherit; font-variant-east-asian: inherit; font-variant-numeric: inherit; font-variant-position: inherit; font-variation-settings: inherit; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1.778em; padding: 0px; vertical-align: baseline;"><span style="color: #990000;">But to its credit, at least the article does not reiterate the "messenger was Moroni" narrative taught by M2C advocates who claim the real Cumorah is in Mexico so the messenger could not have been going to Cumorah, despite what David Whitmer said. </span></p></div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div>Again, we commend Mark for at least including these important references in his article (note 15), but in a practical sense the references remain opaque because he didn't provide specific citations for specific quotation and did not provide links so people can find the references.</div><div><br /></div><div>All of this suggests an intent to provide the illusion of candor and openness while making it impossible for ordinary readers--and all non-English speakers--to learn from the actual original sources.</div><div><br /></div><div>Let's hope this step toward correcting past errors continues.</div><div><br /></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-76581567203048052024-02-29T12:58:00.000-08:002024-02-29T12:58:32.446-08:00Historians, lawyers, and stakes<p>From time to time people (mainly the <i>Interpreters* </i>and their followers) complain that I'm not a historian, so I shouldn't be writing or even commenting about Church history. They complain that I apply principles of legal analysis to the historical evidence.</p><p>The distinction between trial lawyers and historians is understandable in terms of education and career identity, but <b>the practical, real-world distinction seems to boil down to the stakes involved.</b></p><p>_____</p><p>Every judicial trial is an exercise in competing versions of history. Lawyers occasionally hire historians to help research and prepare a case, just as they hire investigators and other experts, but ultimately it is the lawyer who must assemble and present the facts of the case to support the client's position. </p><p>Some facts are objective; everyone agrees with them. </p><p>Other versions of reality are disputed--witnesses disagree, circumstantial evidence is ambiguous--which leads to competing narratives. The competing narratives are explored through cross-examination and other tests of reliability and credibility, presented to a fact-finder (judge or jury) who decides which version of history is proven according to the applicable standard (preponderance, clear and convincing, beyond a reasonable doubt).</p><p><b>For lawyers in civil trials, accurate history is a matter of money</b>; who pays whom depends on which version of reality satisfies the applicable burden of proof according to the fact-finder. Lawyers for each side present alternative interpretations of history for the fact-finder to decide. </p><p><b>For lawyers in criminal trials, accurate history is a matter of freedom vs incarceration, or even life and death.</b> </p><p><br /></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiy4OnWPhA4YfTUXNzTnhpsdkGjTZYza5SkCupiMcnyrM_mKq3jrsO0Tit9UryHlkr0fU7o_nuiBi4_eG3n_7ONylQro5Z0Qzo32DKXZXKbib7J9LzOl-POGYJlMaBIWN30Fx3-prkWXGizXqbiBDWsbrQuWXQ5wykuxKLSoLeU4eOnJ2QytvcKO3kvaoY" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="622" data-original-width="1127" height="177" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEiy4OnWPhA4YfTUXNzTnhpsdkGjTZYza5SkCupiMcnyrM_mKq3jrsO0Tit9UryHlkr0fU7o_nuiBi4_eG3n_7ONylQro5Z0Qzo32DKXZXKbib7J9LzOl-POGYJlMaBIWN30Fx3-prkWXGizXqbiBDWsbrQuWXQ5wykuxKLSoLeU4eOnJ2QytvcKO3kvaoY" width="320" /></a></div><br /><b>For historians, though, accurate history is a matter of intellectual debate with few if any real-world consequences,</b> apart from their own reputations and compensation for books or teaching.<p></p><p>_____</p><p>This different sense of the stakes involved explains why, in my view, so many LDS historians seem to succumb to a "groupthink" approach that reinforces consensus views they've inherited from their teachers and peers. (The critics do likewise, albeit with opposite groupthink and consensus).</p><p>In many cases the historians seem lackadaisical, both (i) willing to edit and even omit original sources that contradict their theories and (ii) unwilling to apply what lawyers consider ordinary truth-testing techniques. </p><p>I've been astonished at some of the examples of this tendency among LDS historians, such as the <i>Saints </i>book (vol. 1) and the Gospel Topics Essays. </p><p>Tomorrow I'll post some more specific examples from recent publications.</p><p>_____</p><p>A seminal article on this topic includes some useful thoughts. It observes that <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"Another difference between the historian and the lawyer is that, generally speaking, the material before the historian is documentary, whereas many of the matters with which a lawyer has to deal are concerned with <b>the evidence of living persons</b>."</span></p><p>Sankey, "THE HISTORIAN AND THE LAWYER: Their Aims and their Methods" in History, NEW SERIES, Vol. 21, No. 82 (SEPTEMBER, 1936), pp. 97-108</p><p><a href="https://www.jstor.org/stable/24401521" target="_blank">https://www.jstor.org/stable/24401521</a></p><p>This experience with living persons conditions lawyers to examine psychology, perception, motive, and other factors relating to reliability and credibility that historians seem to largely overlook. </p><p>On this point, Sankey further observes, <span style="color: #2b00fe;">"It being the function of both the historian lawyer to take part in an investigation of facts, the historian is at a disadvantage compared to the lawyer. How does a historian propose to test the truth of the material which he has to consider? The lawyer has the advantage of cross-examination—the historian no such advantage."</span></p><p>This is why, in my work on history, I challenge witness statements along the lines of cross-examination. That seems natural to me, yet many LDS historians seem to take witness statements at face value without considering such basic elements as motive, opportunity, and means. </p><p>Another excerpt:</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">"But when the historian or the lawyer has collected his evidence, two questions arise : How and to whom is he to present it ? History being a narrative, the first thing for the historian to remember is that he is telling a tale.... that the art of narrative is the principal craft of the historian.... Here again, the advocate's task is the same as the historian's. However simple the case in which the advocate is engaged, he is, in fact, telling a tale, and the better he tells it the greater effect will it have."</span></p><p>Finally,</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe;">"... the position of the historian is rather that of the lawyer advocate than the lawyer judge. And there is another reason why this should be so. The historian differs in one respect from the advocate in a Court of Law. There is no check on him. As already pointed out, there is no one to cross-examine the witnesses at the time, although later on some other historian may, on fresh facts, criticise one of his predecessors. Neither is the historian in the position of the judge, who has the advantage of hearing both sides, with the assistance of counsel on either side. However careful he may be, it is only his unaided judgment that leads him to his conclusion. The verdict of history, therefore, can only mean the opinion of some individual historian."</span></p><p><br /></p><p>_____</p><p>*As used in this post, the <i>Interpreters </i>are those who embrace the editorial bias and tactics of the <i>Interpreter </i>journal in favor of SITH, M2C, and related theories. Based on their complaints, they wouldn't mind in the least that I write about history so long as I agreed with them.</p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com1tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-44726599429992134522024-02-26T08:36:00.000-08:002024-02-26T08:36:53.488-08:00Podcast: the narrow neck of land<p>In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, I'll begin by re-emphasizing that we like and respect everyone involved with Book of Mormon studies, including the awesome people at Book of Mormon Central. We seek unity in diversity, meaning we are happy for people to believe whatever they want. </p><p>We hope all faithful Latter-day Saints share our pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, which leads to <a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>. As we seek to understand multiple working hypotheses, everyone can get along as we work together to establish Zion, despite different opinions about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon .</p><p>_____</p><p>In this podcast, we discussed the topic of the "narrow neck of land."</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkWMiBFMKQc" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkWMiBFMKQc</a></p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgbJuWtyxsO_EWU-DLo7YLHu3zXuqN2MEKvdfZ3DaNDRt6ENT8jaWQ6AwdYOIQaCwfFrHf8RY7YdAQGrpWinGgXSziFIVKKiCVOlZyPGGzCxuQlrzDMVMC0Gn9uJpASl2sG0-0fF_AY2U-iEvGbgH9YkLsiiWwM4ymCsfiKDdjlj4QAJv80yIz0isTiJZQ" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img alt="" data-original-height="202" data-original-width="272" height="238" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/a/AVvXsEgbJuWtyxsO_EWU-DLo7YLHu3zXuqN2MEKvdfZ3DaNDRt6ENT8jaWQ6AwdYOIQaCwfFrHf8RY7YdAQGrpWinGgXSziFIVKKiCVOlZyPGGzCxuQlrzDMVMC0Gn9uJpASl2sG0-0fF_AY2U-iEvGbgH9YkLsiiWwM4ymCsfiKDdjlj4QAJv80yIz0isTiJZQ" width="320" /></a></div><p>One of the most common questions people ask me about geography is "where is the narrow neck of land." I always respond, "It's in Ether 10:20." </p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglYeE_T1Idctn1iWICWnL1Z6imISH_koskHLUcNjkppydTnSi-3IKIYIbevtWzr3vt11wd6vw7yx1oyaYrleXdpDpRE6qRMLQo_YHXiwolzEKWMH5qb5sHHKimS5KNkpA27nmI_zIoyXNI8JpYBHTxfckfZXirL1JWnf8n9VDjtnKidQU5Bsi0toM1BXg/s1089/podcast%20TLD%20Feb%2026.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="706" data-original-width="1089" height="207" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEglYeE_T1Idctn1iWICWnL1Z6imISH_koskHLUcNjkppydTnSi-3IKIYIbevtWzr3vt11wd6vw7yx1oyaYrleXdpDpRE6qRMLQo_YHXiwolzEKWMH5qb5sHHKimS5KNkpA27nmI_zIoyXNI8JpYBHTxfckfZXirL1JWnf8n9VDjtnKidQU5Bsi0toM1BXg/s320/podcast%20TLD%20Feb%2026.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>Most people are surprised to learn that is <b>the only reference</b> in the Book of Mormon to the "narrow neck of land." </p><p></p><p>There are other features--a small neck of land, a narrow passage, a narrow neck--but different terms normally describe different things. People conflate these terms because they have been conditioned to think that all of the geography must fit within an hourglass shape with the "land northward" separated from the "land southward" by "the narrow neck of land."</p><p>In 1917, RLDS scholar L.E. Hills published his M2C map based on his "hourglass" interpretation. </p><p></p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhIzlzzROYwLsrEqxlPCApiUCBsNIGa8ABnnLlZTODpQDXhSEAvQyNOL_41UAKmwNYw9EM-4_l5f4Mjd-eDbbjlJfVIL76PenT70CoGd5EuEe_2mkBc2Q105ihPDJWMdNR9xUm8K42ykvn4HNoBKadtBnW9XQgKbsvh5nJ0ZP9IsiB9MhP5ZauHkhOlSYE/s400/Hills'%201917%20Cumorah.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="329" data-original-width="400" height="263" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhIzlzzROYwLsrEqxlPCApiUCBsNIGa8ABnnLlZTODpQDXhSEAvQyNOL_41UAKmwNYw9EM-4_l5f4Mjd-eDbbjlJfVIL76PenT70CoGd5EuEe_2mkBc2Q105ihPDJWMdNR9xUm8K42ykvn4HNoBKadtBnW9XQgKbsvh5nJ0ZP9IsiB9MhP5ZauHkhOlSYE/s320/Hills'%201917%20Cumorah.png" width="320" /></a></div>In the 1980s, LDS scholars copied Hills' map as their own (now found on the <i>BYU Studies</i> website) and more recently, M2C scholars created the BYU fantasy map.<table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj8p70PRmRIhhaU7Eq2J2yajg6vRpCnMx9cfX_mqtSumRhmkiCiVFjWFIA1GLsbgOB4CkbBnynABpOjELzMd3VaRnNHDraBrAGbrs_iwBLj0px_h4e0lpGBvN78pPAzx7HRx58jCe0rYNVKNvk2M6G-sZNMAQg4VXlVUx1Sqkwd817T4sKtR1hcqAppCtY/s2740/M2C%20BYU%20Studies%20Cumorah%20outlined.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1755" data-original-width="2740" height="205" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj8p70PRmRIhhaU7Eq2J2yajg6vRpCnMx9cfX_mqtSumRhmkiCiVFjWFIA1GLsbgOB4CkbBnynABpOjELzMd3VaRnNHDraBrAGbrs_iwBLj0px_h4e0lpGBvN78pPAzx7HRx58jCe0rYNVKNvk2M6G-sZNMAQg4VXlVUx1Sqkwd817T4sKtR1hcqAppCtY/s320/M2C%20BYU%20Studies%20Cumorah%20outlined.png" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><i>BYU Studies</i> M2C map with Cumorah</td></tr></tbody></table><p></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgtpCC4wS2zaGvrPWnNmtMwNV_VhsTEyZZxdsZxMcfzFChUloy7apb6LXRizG7wdnozKzoAhttEtI5nbzkWXKCNBIxN3UGqWVvaSOFYfioGqLWmiZiq2pFqJLAGHfvzDBd4IPMQh6zhfBcHIqAB6Lqp65NYKcS3s7pCd8Axj80T__poOLm9PRh0PGFWIZA/s2475/M2C%20BYU%20Map%20Cumorah%20outlined.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2475" data-original-width="2300" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgtpCC4wS2zaGvrPWnNmtMwNV_VhsTEyZZxdsZxMcfzFChUloy7apb6LXRizG7wdnozKzoAhttEtI5nbzkWXKCNBIxN3UGqWVvaSOFYfioGqLWmiZiq2pFqJLAGHfvzDBd4IPMQh6zhfBcHIqAB6Lqp65NYKcS3s7pCd8Axj80T__poOLm9PRh0PGFWIZA/s320/M2C%20BYU%20Map%20Cumorah%20outlined.png" width="297" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">BYU fantasy map with Cumorah</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>When we look at how the term "narrow neck of land" was actually used in the days of Joseph Smith, we see that George Washington and others used the term to describe local features such as in Boston Harbor or along the Hudson River.</p><p>While it's easy to see how people simply assumed the "narrow neck of land" was the isthmus between North and South America, it's even easier--and more rational--to interpret the text using the ordinary and contemporary meaning of the terms, as we discussed in the podcast.</p><p>I've discussed this in my books as well as here:</p><p><a href="https://www.lettervii.com/p/narrow-and-small-necks-and-other.html" target="_blank">https://www.lettervii.com/p/narrow-and-small-necks-and-other.html</a></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-26482050576564966972024-02-24T07:38:00.000-08:002024-02-24T07:38:05.625-08:00NY Times quiz with Phoenicians and Cahokia<p>Try this quiz and see how you do:</p><p><br /></p><p><a href="https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/23/upshot/flashback.html?campaign_id=308&emc=edit_fbq_20240224&instance_id=115935&nl=flashback-quiz&regi_id=66510930&segment_id=159034&te=1&user_id=917bfc24ba6e6b9190313aeaf5face63" target="_blank">https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2024/02/23/upshot/flashback.html?campaign_id=308&emc=edit_fbq_20240224&instance_id=115935&nl=flashback-quiz&regi_id=66510930&segment_id=159034&te=1&user_id=917bfc24ba6e6b9190313aeaf5face63</a></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-46012495450111053912024-02-20T08:55:00.000-08:002024-02-20T08:55:07.805-08:00Podcast notes Feb 19-20These are some notes on recent podcast interviews I've done.<div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgQiCKQxofikIo4rmvgWKXHImNPZIscmBHYaqtFcbitjFFvwBPqmRITrQ8ag4grOsLqDLXYS99RtQBKSiroUHlSE4zzcZyflHUBPBPr6G_ZFsMv0h0BNsE91ZLtc2VjVQofM1Q69mNfM4ElkDXn6ENA7K2ozIJmUHbwUWnXzbSHdGl5JTgqdNRLDjKN138/s1024/Elephant%20in%20the%20room%20with%20scholars.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1024" data-original-width="1024" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgQiCKQxofikIo4rmvgWKXHImNPZIscmBHYaqtFcbitjFFvwBPqmRITrQ8ag4grOsLqDLXYS99RtQBKSiroUHlSE4zzcZyflHUBPBPr6G_ZFsMv0h0BNsE91ZLtc2VjVQofM1Q69mNfM4ElkDXn6ENA7K2ozIJmUHbwUWnXzbSHdGl5JTgqdNRLDjKN138/s320/Elephant%20in%20the%20room%20with%20scholars.png" width="320" /></a></div>_____<br /><div><br /></div><div>The Last Dispensation: Cumorah's Elephant in the room</div><div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGo9x9K-gxw" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGo9x9K-gxw</a></div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1lkktWMYgffAjpblbjux_q9rOz2Sgy2g1brOHHapg1jAPtWm_3IXlLVaJppDq1UiTY-G-aCvmNkrJEjT7y_SK1IT2hUNtvLKrhHN5cGhzqmjdD_ZHWXdA4XoGHQJuY0LjSsSbIpM8nhO_1pCDviLsretAu6kNP7BveemihJB1r7SJAJbIiJpli2ec1mU/s328/Podcast%20TLD%20Feb%2019%20thumbnail.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="234" data-original-width="328" height="228" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj1lkktWMYgffAjpblbjux_q9rOz2Sgy2g1brOHHapg1jAPtWm_3IXlLVaJppDq1UiTY-G-aCvmNkrJEjT7y_SK1IT2hUNtvLKrhHN5cGhzqmjdD_ZHWXdA4XoGHQJuY0LjSsSbIpM8nhO_1pCDviLsretAu6kNP7BveemihJB1r7SJAJbIiJpli2ec1mU/s320/Podcast%20TLD%20Feb%2019%20thumbnail.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">In this podcast, we discussed the Gospel Topics entry on Book of Mormon Geography, which includes both Joseph Smith's letter to Emma (crossing the plains of the Nephites in Ohio, Indiana and Illinois) and the 1842 Times and Seasons articles (ruins in Mesoamerica were left by the Nephites).</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-emma-smith-4-june-1834/2" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-emma-smith-4-june-1834/2</a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><img border="0" data-original-height="705" data-original-width="1242" height="182" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikpHQg7pKmT4U78RUZoa_2_WsM8riGpVKnaAd_O_fMGhpIdlQf3NER2mRWsi0JpI1-bPHX4LL-_Jx-aN6q-HuxZNyNMJrEJ7r54BnBY6sMpfNGqaIdN-masS_WMzkMddF1gJ61BjkcHamIhHQW4Uk_KJpNiXxojV5UTDCgMpLwCLQMP7XHIINGl3uRrCw/s320/Podcast%20TLD%20Feb%2019.jpg" width="320" /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="color: black;">I used a white board to show how everyone can weigh the evidence on the scale however they want. </span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="color: black;"><br /></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="color: black;">But the bizarre thing about the Gospel Topics entry is how it completely ignores the elephant in the room: the Hill Cumorah.</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /><span style="color: black;">Fun discussion!</span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><span style="color: black;"> </span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">_____</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">On Ward Radio, we discussed the top 3 reasons for Heartland and the problem of censorship.</div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ScBh9_E97E&t=1383s" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;" target="_blank"><img border="0" data-original-height="254" data-original-width="318" height="254" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjlJC1iep06BushKi7TOsBJDAB44E0H7kRCX-n7sFENgxMN4y98Y6PT_wFikh_71c9wi_1nXj4CBPkI2YHqvORG5MThjBI4Q0UBCMB1_x99o-u-qX3z4wYTBxvabLeN4Wnw7C-cXai9cxh1std-pehHfuf0c-Pe1Dzc1_OtqJ9SJ5f4uvyCEWighwjXzi0/s1600/Podcast%20WR%20-%20Top%203%20arguments%20for%20Heartland.jpg" width="318" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ScBh9_E97E&t=1383s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ScBh9_E97E&t=1383s</a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">There are more than 3 arguments for Heartland, of course, but this interview was a good introduction for people new to the topic. I showed the "pocket edition" of Moroni's America, which is an abbreviated version of the longer book.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEikpHQg7pKmT4U78RUZoa_2_WsM8riGpVKnaAd_O_fMGhpIdlQf3NER2mRWsi0JpI1-bPHX4LL-_Jx-aN6q-HuxZNyNMJrEJ7r54BnBY6sMpfNGqaIdN-masS_WMzkMddF1gJ61BjkcHamIhHQW4Uk_KJpNiXxojV5UTDCgMpLwCLQMP7XHIINGl3uRrCw/s1242/Podcast%20TLD%20Feb%2019.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"></a><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhx_LoC_HmSzPXToDOxvkB_friuNS2CeatK4DroUQkYn_0KgqWmjfapwAPkCDzLIEFLUyiL1tkRPR4RqDhu2jXFcAv1OmWlqK7_iGflMn1TJx1w7RNEpeyZ52vN5pkhtt_LhDb7h93m9K2Q1y6Nh-TmLVC4tgxWkV0o0Ic80bULolwsJgxBlhmDPFfUp2s/s1877/Podcast%20-%20Ward%20Radio%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1181" data-original-width="1877" height="201" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhx_LoC_HmSzPXToDOxvkB_friuNS2CeatK4DroUQkYn_0KgqWmjfapwAPkCDzLIEFLUyiL1tkRPR4RqDhu2jXFcAv1OmWlqK7_iGflMn1TJx1w7RNEpeyZ52vN5pkhtt_LhDb7h93m9K2Q1y6Nh-TmLVC4tgxWkV0o0Ic80bULolwsJgxBlhmDPFfUp2s/s320/Podcast%20-%20Ward%20Radio%201.jpg" width="320" /></a></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #0000ee;"><u><br /></u></span></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">In the next interview, we discussed the problem of academic censorship, all in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding. Censorship is the antithesis of clarity. To eliminate contention (<a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>), we need clarity (accuracy, openness, candor, etc.), charity (assuming people act in good faith), and understanding (seek first to understand and avoid the compulsion to demand agreement).</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">The specific example we discussed was from the Church History Department, actually, and involves the Wentworth letter.</div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjYdNOJDoMz2YHtNyB61ygzBl2PAyDJ8q8_wjeA9qFRhwAj3W6w5IrpGAcNpqhW3hGeAqJUNDgUdyrW5vxlW7yko0yIUNxoF2mnp4c99zXHtYaUKJzDC7cIaWi48pNUAOdPZWFXX_na-kIvCzryWY12SUCJa8thCKHITev6aHNh49hNWzatYxM0urvEWvk/s322/Podcast%20WR%20-%20Feb%20-%20Censorship.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="260" data-original-width="322" height="258" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjYdNOJDoMz2YHtNyB61ygzBl2PAyDJ8q8_wjeA9qFRhwAj3W6w5IrpGAcNpqhW3hGeAqJUNDgUdyrW5vxlW7yko0yIUNxoF2mnp4c99zXHtYaUKJzDC7cIaWi48pNUAOdPZWFXX_na-kIvCzryWY12SUCJa8thCKHITev6aHNh49hNWzatYxM0urvEWvk/s320/Podcast%20WR%20-%20Feb%20-%20Censorship.jpg" width="320" /></a></div></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><span style="color: #0000ee;"><u><br /></u></span></div><div><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU__fwgu4A8&t=66s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QU__fwgu4A8&t=66s</a></div><div><br /></div>Several years ago, the lesson manual <i>Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith</i> included a chapter on the Wentworth letter, originally published as "Church History" in the <i>Times and Seasons</i> on March 1, 1842.</div><div><br /></div><div>Here is the chapter in the manual:</div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng" target="_blank">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng</a></div><div><br /></div><div>As we discussed in the video, Joseph started the letter with a simple request:</div><div><br /></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0 0 0 40px; padding: 0px;"><div style="text-align: left;"><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><span style="font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; text-indent: 22px;">As </span><aside class="popup-wrapper" id="409146526939271184" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; line-height: var(--size26); position: relative; scroll-margin-top: 64px; text-wrap: nowrap;"><a class="reference staticPopup" id="link409146526939271184" person="x4921" ro="x4921" style="box-sizing: border-box; cursor: pointer; font-family: var(--McKay); font-size: var(--size18); line-height: var(--size26); transition: color 300ms ease 0s;" title="George Barstow">Mr. Bastow</a></aside><span style="font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; text-indent: 22px;"> has taken the proper </span><span style="font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; text-indent: 22px;">steps to obtain correct information all </span><span style="font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; text-indent: 22px;">that I shall ask at his hands, is, <b>that he </b></span><b><span style="font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; text-indent: 22px;">publish the account entire, ungarnished, </span><span style="font-family: McKay, serif; font-size: 18px; text-indent: 22px;">and without misrepresentation.</span></b></span></div></blockquote><div><br /></div><div>It turns out, Joseph didn't need to worry about Mr. Bastow or Mr. Wentworth. </div><div><br /></div><div>It was the Church History Department (and/or Curriculum Department) who <b>refused </b>to "publish the account entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation."</div><div></div><div><br /></div><div>Instead, the lesson manual <b>censored </b>important sections of Joseph's letter by replacing important material with ellipses in all the dozens of languages it was translated into. </div><div><br /></div><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjM6pBGeLxB_u_HP11sD9563mAWzzI_SkBLfFEMdPmUDJcBNcUegzMt9t2MHAZQbvG9KgzSJIb-k-iRB2OvuqXJOWezK3zrkRBvNpuYS2GHybxIejwlMS-QyOIu5H5qfZtOEodjCXClPw7mk1s0LszzCHk18enVDOenHHU_ywmO9eSzD0OMYVIAY0BpwiM/s561/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20English.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="226" data-original-width="561" height="129" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjM6pBGeLxB_u_HP11sD9563mAWzzI_SkBLfFEMdPmUDJcBNcUegzMt9t2MHAZQbvG9KgzSJIb-k-iRB2OvuqXJOWezK3zrkRBvNpuYS2GHybxIejwlMS-QyOIu5H5qfZtOEodjCXClPw7mk1s0LszzCHk18enVDOenHHU_ywmO9eSzD0OMYVIAY0BpwiM/s320/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20English.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">English</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgcmTRZt2sJHmEBZ9Cl3SIDCJ3nLMxuz-rSp41pWhbbSLx2MBwrn6ezFjk7Zxy8s7evQkIGcvf1CHTcctvFNglIF_8OQ9Z_lY7F9KwHqh60gjafssgXott6ZpH9Rfl0OJnKPAxQepXNLhu8WnfAW7INrYcbtPF8NBctRDwEpIsVhBe4w8YLlETiuAo4DIQ/s526/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20French.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="277" data-original-width="526" height="169" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgcmTRZt2sJHmEBZ9Cl3SIDCJ3nLMxuz-rSp41pWhbbSLx2MBwrn6ezFjk7Zxy8s7evQkIGcvf1CHTcctvFNglIF_8OQ9Z_lY7F9KwHqh60gjafssgXott6ZpH9Rfl0OJnKPAxQepXNLhu8WnfAW7INrYcbtPF8NBctRDwEpIsVhBe4w8YLlETiuAo4DIQ/s320/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20French.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">French</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhVkH3TpQp8mDmv8KAkpezq7RO949UQ4Fe17KvcsAfewVtd1xBWaERHHCG0Ubr6M85p9JQVstU6yZvzn810-ZPZJ5MGDVw908oRnK81S_fXZ5vGvQm8UuZukFXjeHp7V0MayqaWMmRlSdmTWZ98lWOoovb138xHrSrBCL0SUbSixaTBNaMub9NekyrMg-c/s549/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20Spanish.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="277" data-original-width="549" height="161" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhVkH3TpQp8mDmv8KAkpezq7RO949UQ4Fe17KvcsAfewVtd1xBWaERHHCG0Ubr6M85p9JQVstU6yZvzn810-ZPZJ5MGDVw908oRnK81S_fXZ5vGvQm8UuZukFXjeHp7V0MayqaWMmRlSdmTWZ98lWOoovb138xHrSrBCL0SUbSixaTBNaMub9NekyrMg-c/s320/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20Spanish.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Spanish</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGoIgIUJf2c8tKmBg5A8ay85B39Tf1F3nejnvkBy2MN_oIXGmclH9e9ufZ93rbOvwhMWtIRp1pALcunl1wcmu72Dh-c-e9sGy9b-tQ82YNNUIu2lzynwksAFJEuMGn33maohZzrc6QYY6qScsDTs41MDCD5CGBCS-QjowWeNE_CZOgqfqlb0l9LUi2GfI/s541/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20Tagalog.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="306" data-original-width="541" height="181" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhGoIgIUJf2c8tKmBg5A8ay85B39Tf1F3nejnvkBy2MN_oIXGmclH9e9ufZ93rbOvwhMWtIRp1pALcunl1wcmu72Dh-c-e9sGy9b-tQ82YNNUIu2lzynwksAFJEuMGn33maohZzrc6QYY6qScsDTs41MDCD5CGBCS-QjowWeNE_CZOgqfqlb0l9LUi2GfI/s320/Wentworth%20ellipses%20-%20Tagalog.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Tagalog</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><div><br /></div><div>For the vast majority of Latter-day Saints around the world, this manual is the principal, if not only, source of Joseph Smith's teachings in their native language. I'm not aware that the entire Wentworth letter has ever been officially translated into other languages.</div><div><br /></div><div>Thus, this censorship has deprived most Latter-day Saints of Joseph's actual teachings in this important letter. </div><div><br /></div><div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi32Rb89olmJc76eDBUaDelNrS1IvOEQmDX4_RUT7ffHwZbzBSd9wFKA_XyIYok8fMScwNWzPdRew1wnd51TWgbyF210PdOKOThXgBd1pkw8oEH21DDBglZRFLrHpso48sb-8TdVo49RIVuoTKfftQY8Xzxl1Mau9U1ARk-B0FspsZE5ASzIq5MKGxnQyM/s719/Wentworth%20letter%20page%20from%20T&S.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="719" data-original-width="454" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi32Rb89olmJc76eDBUaDelNrS1IvOEQmDX4_RUT7ffHwZbzBSd9wFKA_XyIYok8fMScwNWzPdRew1wnd51TWgbyF210PdOKOThXgBd1pkw8oEH21DDBglZRFLrHpso48sb-8TdVo49RIVuoTKfftQY8Xzxl1Mau9U1ARk-B0FspsZE5ASzIq5MKGxnQyM/s320/Wentworth%20letter%20page%20from%20T&S.jpg" width="202" /></a></div>English readers can still read the account entire in the Joseph Smith Papers (if they can find it), but the vast majority of Latter-day Saints will never know what Joseph wanted people to know when he wrote this letter.</div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/1" target="_blank">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/1</a></div><div><br /></div><div>Obviously, this is an easy fix. Most Latter-day Saints use these lesson manuals digitally today, whether online or downloaded. The lesson manual could be easily corrected to provide the account "entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation" for the benefit of everyone.</div><div><br /></div><div>But this has been going on for years, the Church History Department knows it, and they won't correct it.</div><div><br /></div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div>Next, let's look at what was censored. The part censored by the ellipses is in <b>bold </b>below:</div><div><br /></div><blockquote style="border: none; margin: 0px 0px 0px 40px; padding: 0px; text-align: left;"><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God.</span></div></div><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><div><div><b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">In this important and interesting book the history of ancient America is unfolded, from its first settlement by a colony that came from the tower of Babel, at the confusion of languages to the beginning of the fifth century of the Christian era. We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people.</span></b></div></div><div><div><b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem, about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites, of the descendants of Joseph.</span></b></div></div><div><div><b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. </span></b></div></div><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;"><br /></span></div></div><div><div><span style="color: #2b00fe;">This book <b>also </b>tells us that our Saviour made his appearance upon this continent after his resurrection,</span></div></div></blockquote><div><br /></div><div>I've been given various reasons for this censorship, including the so-called "DNA problem" that led to the rewording of the Introduction to the Book of Mormon. </div><div><br /></div><div>As I read this passage (others may disagree), Joseph accomplished several important things. To appreciate the significance, it's important to recognize that much of the Wentworth letter was adapted from an 1840 pamphlet by Orson Pratt, as I've discussed many times.</div><div><br /></div><div>Some key takeaways.</div><div><br /></div><div>1. He corrected Orson Pratt's error about the Israelite identity of Lehi's people by explaining they were "principally" Israelites, suggesting there were non-Israelites among them.</div><div><br /></div><div>2. He refuted Orson Pratt's extensive musings about the identity of the Lamanites by explaining that the "remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country," which is consistent with both D&C 28, 30 and 32 and Joseph's direct teachings to the Native Americans he met.</div><div><br /></div><div>3. He did not claim or imply that the Book of Mormon peoples were the only inhabitants of the western hemisphere.</div><div><br /></div><div>4. He explained that ancient America was inhabited by two distinct races, a concept that was not only contrary to popular belief but the basis for an anti-Mormon book called <i>Cumorah Revisited</i> that led to the development of the two-Cumorahs theory. Not surprisingly, Joseph's explanation has been vindicated by modern archaeology and anthropology.</div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div>While scholars can debate the significance and relevance of the Wentworth letter, Joseph expressly declared it contained "correct information." He wrote it and published it in the Times and Seasons so that all the Latter-day Saints would have access to it. </div><div><br /></div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div>Another topic we discussed in the podcast was the book <i>Opening the Heavens</i>, which I've discussed before here:</div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2017/12/opening-heavens-but-censoring-history.html" target="_blank">https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2017/12/opening-heavens-but-censoring-history.html</a></div><div><br /></div><div>Basically, the book omits the documented statements from David Whitmer in the 1870s about the messenger taking the plates to Cumorah before going to Fayette, and about Joseph identifying the messenger as one of the Three Nephites (which is consistent with David's mother saying the messenger identified himself as "Brother Nephi"). </div><div><br /></div><div>Instead, the book cites a typewritten document from 1918 that it attributes to Joseph F. Smith (whose contemporaneous account from the 1870s differs on these points) and claims the messenger took the plates to Fayette, which contradicts the entire narrative. David explained that the messenger specifically declined a ride to Fayette because he had to go to Cumorah first.</div><div><br /></div><div>The problems I identified there are also easy fixes that will likely never be made. Readers deserve to have all the relevant references.</div><div><br /></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3PE7YwgoItPcmq9Umltkyvn-t8CSsufYkcIGL8DouHCXXl49ldC2EqdY-r59FbpSXZ_iNgYr75DGns_ieDrhk7igdLESmDrctcCynjjRauD9OO4Tkta6gOKRvs4PtpZ_-8XSajjcsGFrGNhNnq4cx5m1kLHXrh5ZmS3xg7ytPQKOAtWX4_wDMhtEofFE/s750/Opening%20the%20Heavens%20p.%20108.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="750" data-original-width="476" height="400" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEi3PE7YwgoItPcmq9Umltkyvn-t8CSsufYkcIGL8DouHCXXl49ldC2EqdY-r59FbpSXZ_iNgYr75DGns_ieDrhk7igdLESmDrctcCynjjRauD9OO4Tkta6gOKRvs4PtpZ_-8XSajjcsGFrGNhNnq4cx5m1kLHXrh5ZmS3xg7ytPQKOAtWX4_wDMhtEofFE/w254-h400/Opening%20the%20Heavens%20p.%20108.jpg" width="254" /></a></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /></div><br /><div><br /></div><div><br /><div><br /></div></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-21911181252001811382024-02-18T17:35:00.000-08:002024-02-18T17:35:24.953-08:00Ward Radio podcasts<p>On the way home from the South Pacific I had a chance to stop in California and spend some time with Cardon Ellis at Ward Radio. He's awesome, very energetic and knowledgeable, as well as thoughtful and insightful.</p><p>It's cool to be able to discuss these issues openly with no contention, all in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding. And with some fun as well.</p><p>Here is the first of our interviews. Hopefully we'll get a chance to explore more issues in the future.</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ScBh9_E97E" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ScBh9_E97E</a></p><p>Enjoy and comment.</p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5WcqIumiMenEwceMvSGdR5kktsWCXJ64wis4-PgSAgwkbj9r6_xW8mcS0HLYPwggA7LqIY90o2Ea2-MmY7WqTGE-DzCs25RQqpLeXti52EYNGnHBvGR2YfrNBtM78V5rb-oc96zgghm-8Llf_4CbMUnHGH4VOkJhDEj0PE4m5hMPzMN9z57yhW0kqjg8/s1877/Podcast%20-%20Ward%20Radio%201.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1181" data-original-width="1877" height="201" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj5WcqIumiMenEwceMvSGdR5kktsWCXJ64wis4-PgSAgwkbj9r6_xW8mcS0HLYPwggA7LqIY90o2Ea2-MmY7WqTGE-DzCs25RQqpLeXti52EYNGnHBvGR2YfrNBtM78V5rb-oc96zgghm-8Llf_4CbMUnHGH4VOkJhDEj0PE4m5hMPzMN9z57yhW0kqjg8/s320/Podcast%20-%20Ward%20Radio%201.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-64484100994103703562024-02-13T08:03:00.000-08:002024-02-13T08:03:40.756-08:00L'Amerique de Moroni<p>About 5 years ago we visited the island nation of Comoros and its capital, Moroni. While there my wife took this photo of me holding a copy of <i>L'Amerique de Moroni</i>, the French translation of my book <i>Moroni's America</i>.</p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDEhzDjZfIFTnx9VI4VwY8keJpQhnePBvq9jtluTy37AOwS3z9DpptEqjgUDAjlnQfdnJNBq69tVgEJq9y5Doy_H5MICw-q5n45gthPNHu7XXj3X96rsoqvkDfKHthSULXQAfc1dlzUKj1TXgzjuBNoaNmGIko3W0L8Qb7CJM9FttNtjqrZDea3s82CTA/s4003/In%20Moroni%20-%2020181107_072545.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1960" data-original-width="4003" height="196" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiDEhzDjZfIFTnx9VI4VwY8keJpQhnePBvq9jtluTy37AOwS3z9DpptEqjgUDAjlnQfdnJNBq69tVgEJq9y5Doy_H5MICw-q5n45gthPNHu7XXj3X96rsoqvkDfKHthSULXQAfc1dlzUKj1TXgzjuBNoaNmGIko3W0L8Qb7CJM9FttNtjqrZDea3s82CTA/w400-h196/In%20Moroni%20-%2020181107_072545.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>My phone cover at the time featured the cover of the English edition.</p><p>If you (or people you know) have not read <i>Moroni's America</i>, this would be an ideal time because it helps people relate to the setting of the Book of Mormon as we go through Come Follow Me.</p><p>If you don't accept a North American setting based on Cumorah in New York, that's fine. In the interest of clarity, charity and understanding (see <a href="http://nomorecontention.com" target="_blank">nomorecontention.com</a>), it's still a good idea for you and all Latter-day Saints to understand why other Latter-day Saints do accept a North American setting.</p><p>_____</p><p>I wrote a summary of the book several years ago.</p><p><span style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #2a33d5; font-family: Georgia, Utopia, "Palatino Linotype", Palatino, serif; font-size: 22px;">Book Summaries - Moroni's America</span></p><div class="post-header" style="background-color: #fdfafe; color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px; line-height: 1.6; margin: 0px 0px 1em;"><div class="post-header-line-1"></div></div><div class="post-body entry-content" id="post-body-6482624395232285574" itemprop="description articleBody" style="background-color: #fdfafe; line-height: 1.4; position: relative; width: 586px;"><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NcUpsquPYHU/WPYcTm-DNnI/AAAAAAAAXCc/4oqY1yJJOZUgWmPisXQJpO1BNKv96MpxgCLcB/s1600/Moroni%2527s%2BAmerica.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; color: #2a33d5; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em; text-decoration-line: none;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-NcUpsquPYHU/WPYcTm-DNnI/AAAAAAAAXCc/4oqY1yJJOZUgWmPisXQJpO1BNKv96MpxgCLcB/s320/Moroni%2527s%2BAmerica.jpg" style="background: rgb(255, 255, 255); border-radius: 5px; border: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); box-shadow: rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.2) 0px 0px 20px; padding: 8px; position: relative;" width="203" /></a></div>I wrote <i>Moroni's America</i> for members and nonmembers because I wanted to explain why Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery insisted that Cumorah was in New York.<br /><br />Anyone who still believes in a non-New York Cumorah, whether in Mesoamerica or Chile or Baja or Malaysia or Eritrea, ought to read <i>Moroni's America</i>, if only to understand why so many members of the Church accept what Joseph and Oliver said about Cumorah.<br /><br />You might enjoy reading the book because it is the only chapter-by-chapter explanation of the North American setting. (<a href="https://www.amazon.com/Moronis-America-JD-Jonathan-Neville/dp/151208798X/ref=sr_1_3?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1492557666&sr=1-3" style="color: #2a33d5; text-decoration-line: none;">Amazon </a>or <a href="https://www.digitalegend.com/products/moronis-america" target="_blank"><span style="color: #2a33d5;">D</span>igital Legend</a>).</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" trbidi="on"><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Moronis-America-American-setting-Mormon-ebook/dp/B019DN0VJO" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Moronis-America-American-setting-Mormon-ebook/dp/B019DN0VJO</a></span></span><br /><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">_____________</span></span><br /><br /><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">Once I realized that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the anonymous articles in the </span></span><i style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;">Times and Seasons</i><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 13px;"> that were the genesis of the Mesoamerican theory (see </span></span><i style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;"><a href="https://www.amazon.com/Lost-City-Zarahemla-Guatemala-Again/dp/1515337995" target="_blank">The Lost City of Zarahemla</a></i><span style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size: 13px;">, 2nd edition), the next step was to analyze the text itself.</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">People who focus on the text have come up with myriad settings that, in their view, fit the text. We can apply the FAITH model to see how this happens.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">We start with the Facts. In this case, the facts are the text itself.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Then we apply our Assumptions. In this case, some people (including me) assume Joseph and Oliver accurately identified Cumorah (Mormon 6:6) in western New York. Others assume they were wrong, which opens the door to any number of alternative locations for Cumorah. </div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Then we make Inferences to fill in any gaps, analyze everything pursuant to our Theory, and finally develop a Hypothesis to explain everything.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">_____<br /><br />My wife made a list of around 300 geography-related verses and told me she wanted to know where everything took place. It was an awesome challenge. I started with 1 Nephi 1 and ended with Moroni 10.<br /><br />I was actually surprised to see how well the Book of Mormon describes North America.<br /><br />When you consider what Joseph and Oliver actually said and wrote, as well as what their successors have said and written, including in General Conference, and you factor in the prophecies and promises, and the fulfillment of those prophecies, you realize that <b>no matter how you look at the question of Book of Mormon geography, everything points to the North American setting. </b></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><b><br /></b></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh9VcV51xqvMx8ZUV9HZU1znspSTxroc1Bsbuw9XFIlt-eSHBAe8iAgJCv7RVDYpXMJ_91widnoHJzcgl4DPcuy8At8P4A9Wya2QhUQMawbqjl_rR1ZoK_Rr53H8h-TtoU4NBQY7zLO8gQne4ZT8lVn338WHbtAMHRKdcb3_C_a3YbgDB3pHQ7PDD6O0Bs/s553/MA%20overall.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="445" data-original-width="553" height="258" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEh9VcV51xqvMx8ZUV9HZU1znspSTxroc1Bsbuw9XFIlt-eSHBAe8iAgJCv7RVDYpXMJ_91widnoHJzcgl4DPcuy8At8P4A9Wya2QhUQMawbqjl_rR1ZoK_Rr53H8h-TtoU4NBQY7zLO8gQne4ZT8lVn338WHbtAMHRKdcb3_C_a3YbgDB3pHQ7PDD6O0Bs/s320/MA%20overall.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">Framework from Moroni's America - pocket edition<br />(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgq6qsq9Yisrsop_BqoR0TTMrCLqGyTD_BsezSNfxzCubC34MXxjPc7aY7hr0GQ4gh1w-rOuteYMdwHax7mmwti5mWJ4p24uwL_t_7SAAt12LEQI6PJ_jBc3ur-NsuuF8XHPAN_KwKWmCESOgO3soKpxHxR6MY96_qy8TCJq9_j-TknN04agHr0GVzEyJ8/s574/MA%20crossing%20the%20ocean.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="397" data-original-width="574" height="221" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgq6qsq9Yisrsop_BqoR0TTMrCLqGyTD_BsezSNfxzCubC34MXxjPc7aY7hr0GQ4gh1w-rOuteYMdwHax7mmwti5mWJ4p24uwL_t_7SAAt12LEQI6PJ_jBc3ur-NsuuF8XHPAN_KwKWmCESOgO3soKpxHxR6MY96_qy8TCJq9_j-TknN04agHr0GVzEyJ8/s320/MA%20crossing%20the%20ocean.jpg" width="320" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">How they arrived in the New World<br />(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><b><br /></b><br />The North American setting is commonly known as the Heartland model. I like<i> Moroni's America</i> because the significance is not merely geography, but the prophetic destiny and responsibility of the covenant land of promise, exemplified by General Moroni and clearly delineated by Moroni son of Mormon.<br />_______________<br /><br />The principal alternative to the North American setting is called the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory (M2C). M2C proponents readily acknowledge that Joseph, Oliver and their contemporaries and successors identified the hill in New York as Cumorah, but they think all of these people relied on a false tradition because to make M2C work, the "real" Cumorah must be in southern Mexico.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Which is fine. </div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">People can believe whatever they want. </div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">When we apply the FAITH model, we see clearly that the fundamental assumption of M2C is that the prophets were wrong, while the fundamental premise of Moroni's America is that the prophets were correct.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">This clarity enables Latter-day Saints to make informed decisions.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Which assumption do you make when it comes to Cumorah and the setting of the Book of Mormon?</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">_____</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Regardless of which assumption you make, you owe it to yourself to understand why so many Latter-day Saints still believe what the prophets have taught about the New York Cumorah and how that setting fits in North America.</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Note: M2C promoters like to say they are using the text as their primary rationale for locating Book of Mormon events in Central America. The text, they claim, is the highest authority on their hierarchy of evidence.<br /><br />This is a cognitive fallacy, of course. In the first place, it is not the text itself, but their <i>interpretation </i>of the text, that they deem the highest authority. The text doesn't use any modern terminology to explain its setting (unless you accept what the prophets have taught about Cumorah in New York).</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">Secondly, everyone interprets the text to confirm their pre-existing bias, aka choice-supportive bias, also called post-purchase rationalization. It is a cognitive bias whereby people retroactively justify choices they've made. Once you decide where you <i>want </i>the Book of Mormon to have taken place, the text is vague enough that you can adapt it to almost any site in the world. You can "see" any culture in the text as well.<br /><br />The common human tendency toward choice-supportive bias is why I take the approach of <b>starting </b>with what Joseph and Oliver said, and <b>then </b>seeing how the text <b>supports and corroborates what they said.</b> When you do this, Cumorah is in New York and everything else flows from there.<br />________________<br /><br />M2C promoters started with that same process. The difference is that they chose the anonymous <i>Times and Seasons</i> articles <i>instead</i> of Letter VII and other statements by Joseph, Oliver, David Whitmer, etc.<br /><br /><b>They chose to accept what Joseph <i>did not say</i> instead of what <i>he did say</i>. </b><br /><b><br /></b><b>This is why they have come full circle to the point now that to rationalize their choice of Mesoamerica, they outright reject what Joseph and Oliver actually said.</b><br /><br />Anyone can follow the history and see that the M2C promoters first decided where the events took place, based on the 1842 <i>Times and Seasons</i> articles, <i>before they even considered the text.</i><br /><br />The authors of those articles, some combination of Benjamin Winchester, William Smith, and W.W. Phelps, made their claims based on discoveries of ruins in Central America. They barely analyzed the text, and they didn't care that the ruins themselves were anachronistic in terms of the Book of Mormon. They were focused on promoting the Book of Mormon for missionary work, and if that meant linking it to sensational finds in Central America, then why not?<br /><br />Their successors, the modern-day M2C promoters, have confirmed their Mesoamerican bias even though they acknowledge that the anonymous articles were incorrect (i.e., Zarahemla is not Quirigua, the ruins don't line up to Book of Mormon time frames, etc.). Some even acknowledge that Joseph Smith had nothing to do with the anonymous articles.<br /><br />Yet they persist in finding "correspondences" between Central America (Mesoamerica) and the text, all the while repudiating what Joseph and Oliver taught.<br /><br /><b>Again, we emphasize that people can believe whatever they want.</b></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, we encourage everyone to seek first to understand, then to be understood, to give everyone else the benefit of the doubt, and make our own informed decisions based on clarity.<br />___________________<br /><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><i>Moroni's America</i> includes lots of details and footnotes. </div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjA9uEBVB5VZVYWYC3oWtLEJpi9bJIwOKUNr2HYuFb6QKWFVD1YZPf3c-gArbX7R9HbTJD-BKnElAo5wG9W2En0fTNR1NRMl9j91FykaK1DZlufmh29Lv8A71AB20PUXyDyE-xQNSQeHMOO2xCSEHKA3L6U4Iwyll5aPK0lKsK62n8Fzq9UvUpByPkBnBc/s1360/MA%20Pocket%20Edition.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="1360" data-original-width="850" height="320" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEjA9uEBVB5VZVYWYC3oWtLEJpi9bJIwOKUNr2HYuFb6QKWFVD1YZPf3c-gArbX7R9HbTJD-BKnElAo5wG9W2En0fTNR1NRMl9j91FykaK1DZlufmh29Lv8A71AB20PUXyDyE-xQNSQeHMOO2xCSEHKA3L6U4Iwyll5aPK0lKsK62n8Fzq9UvUpByPkBnBc/s320/MA%20Pocket%20Edition.jpg" width="200" /></a></div><br />Some readers asked for a shorter version, so I wrote a "pocket edition" that summarizes the setting. </div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><i>Moroni's America-Pocket edition</i> is available in print and Kindle, here: <a href="https://www.amazon.com/Moronis-America-Pocket-Jonathan-Neville/dp/1944200126" target="_blank">https://www.amazon.com/Moronis-America-Pocket-Jonathan-Neville/dp/1944200126</a></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on">_____</div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div><br /><div dir="ltr" style="color: #333333; font-family: Arial, Tahoma, Helvetica, FreeSans, sans-serif; font-size: 13px;" trbidi="on"><br /></div></div><p>For more detail, there is a third-party website that has adapted my material with some variations that you can explore here:</p><p><a href="https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/" target="_blank">https://www.moronisamerica.com/maps/</a></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-69606963717318152122024-02-01T17:30:00.000-08:002024-02-01T17:30:41.951-08:00Citation cartels in the news<p>From time to time I still hear people complain about my use of the term "citation cartel" to refer to the small group of LDS intellectuals who promote M2C and SITH.</p><p>I've explained that I didn't coin the term. I borrowed it from the larger academic literature because it's an apt description of what is going on with LDS academics and apologetics. </p><p>Here's a recent example of a citation cartel from <i>Science </i>magazine:</p><p><a href="https://www.science.org/content/article/citation-cartels-help-some-mathematicians-and-their-universities-climb-rankings" target="_blank">https://www.science.org/content/article/citation-cartels-help-some-mathematicians-and-their-universities-climb-rankings</a></p><p>[see excerpts below]</p><p>We all see this at work in the <i>Interpreter</i>, <i>Meridian Magazine</i>, and the content of Book of Mormon Central. Another example is the way certain scholars have their work cited/referenced in the Joseph Smith Papers and Gospel Topics Essays, then in subsequent publications cite the JSP and GTE as authority for their own theories.</p><p>In the pursuit of clarity (no more contention), soon I'll be releasing an in-depth analysis of the problem, focusing on SITH initially.</p><p>"Soon" meaning whenever we've finished enjoying the southern hemisphere...</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhmcKo6WXqvcDP-erww6_J_eWivzKuw6vF-m3aJ3TDpVVNyAlynLl-aLKLT1IJLF_Pm2iQ5_VaTRpaKElVOm0_h-vtw5ogR7jwtxpcIohYbaCxDFWcxNK5wS8r7IiIkeRxCwQ4HwI4CGqE15JQj3R_osCpfZDiUNjvamveodt4UZ7PkhI_QQ9DIUhOk9vc/s4000/20240201_103311.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2252" data-original-width="4000" height="180" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEhmcKo6WXqvcDP-erww6_J_eWivzKuw6vF-m3aJ3TDpVVNyAlynLl-aLKLT1IJLF_Pm2iQ5_VaTRpaKElVOm0_h-vtw5ogR7jwtxpcIohYbaCxDFWcxNK5wS8r7IiIkeRxCwQ4HwI4CGqE15JQj3R_osCpfZDiUNjvamveodt4UZ7PkhI_QQ9DIUhOk9vc/s320/20240201_103311.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>_____</p><p>Excerpts from <i>Science </i>magazine:</p><p><b><span style="color: #2b00fe; font-size: large;">Citation cartels help some mathematicians—and their universities—climb the rankings</span></b></p><p><b><span style="color: #2b00fe;">Widespread citation manipulation has led entire field of math to be excluded from influential list of top researchers</span></b></p><p>_____</p><p>The article points out how some scholars and universities use citation cartels to artificially boost their own influence as measured by the number of citations.</p><p>The conclusion is relevant to my point about the M2C/SITH citation cartels:</p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe; font-family: PT Serif, serif;"><span style="font-size: 18px;"><b>Cliques of mathematicians</b> at institutions in China, Saudi Arabia, and elsewhere <b>have been artificially boosting their colleagues’ citation counts</b> by churning out low-quality papers that repeatedly reference their work, according to an unpublished analysis seen by Science. As a result, their universities—some of which do not appear to have math departments—now produce a greater number of highly cited math papers each year than schools with a strong track record in the field, such as Stanford and Princeton universities.</span></span></p><p><span style="color: #2b00fe; font-family: "PT Serif", serif; font-size: 18px;">These so-called “citation cartels” appear to be trying to improve their universities’ rankings, according to experts in publication practices. ...</span></p><p><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: "PT Serif", serif; font-size: 18px;">Other researchers say <b>citation manipulation is simply a symptom of a flawed system of evaluation.</b> Citations and similar metrics are not refined enough to monitor individual performance, says Ismael Rafols, a researcher at the Centre for Science and Technology Studies of the University of Leiden, and people are always going to find ways to game the system. Holden agrees: </span><b style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: "PT Serif", serif; font-size: 18px;">“The bottom line is that citations are not a good measure of scientific quality.”</b></p><p>_____</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-5841431952284658282024-01-29T10:01:00.000-08:002024-01-29T10:01:00.132-08:00Can ordinary members rescue Book of Mormon Central?<div>We usually come to New Zealand in the winter for a few weeks. The golfing is great...</div><br /><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj7iHnh-WXIZAZzgwVPVuFWO9kuengpd938wYS7Go8LE-UhYveGf1sPl3eF7J0F_BJg3ObBL_vqviXeWKh0HMzof2WljRMRLZTwHzHHkBMxt8G5jjOdXu1VKdG-CqwxvfpdMPdQX7EdL8mUqZhWGNmZZ2FB4XfJlM1YHtRW_5dtzNBJPrphgp4t_vUFpls/s4000/20240118_141324.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="2252" data-original-width="4000" height="180" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEj7iHnh-WXIZAZzgwVPVuFWO9kuengpd938wYS7Go8LE-UhYveGf1sPl3eF7J0F_BJg3ObBL_vqviXeWKh0HMzof2WljRMRLZTwHzHHkBMxt8G5jjOdXu1VKdG-CqwxvfpdMPdQX7EdL8mUqZhWGNmZZ2FB4XfJlM1YHtRW_5dtzNBJPrphgp4t_vUFpls/s320/20240118_141324.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><br /><p>We visit local wards wherever we go. It's fascinating to meet Heartlanders around the world. This week we met more who had watched YouTube videos during covid and learned, for the first time, about the North American setting of the Book of Mormon, with Cumorah in New York. They told us that this makes much more sense than the "Mexico theory" (as they put it). </p><p>They also watch Taylor and Tyler and wonder why they and Book of Mormon Central continues to push the Mesoamerican theory without even acknowledging alternative settings that corroborate and support the teachings of the prophets about the New York Cumorah.</p><p>_____</p><p>By analogy, the article below from the WSJ asking whether readers can save the <i>NY Times</i> is relevant. James Freeman points out that readers are more reasonable than the "expert" journalists at that newspaper.</p><p>In my experience around the world, everyday Latter-day Saints are more reasonable than the "experts" at Book of Mormon Central, the Interpreter, etc. Not that those experts aren't awesome people. They are. We continue to hope that someday, these experts will promote inclusivity instead of exclusivity, charity instead of arrogance, and understanding instead of condemnation of others' perspectives.</p><p>In the meantime, the pursuit of "no more contention" through clarity, charity, and understanding, we start with clarity.</p><p>Everyday Latter-day Saints still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, and they find it more productive to corroborate those teachings instead of repudiating those teachings.</p><p>We can all read the original documents from Church history. We can all read the teachings of the prophets in the General Conference reports.</p><p>Well, not all of us. Most of these resources are only available in English.</p><p>Non-English speakers have to rely upon translated versions of the <i>Saints </i>books, the Gospel Topics Essays, and materials from Book of Mormon Central, all of which promote/accommodate SITH and M2C.</p><p>But ultimately truth cannot be suppressed.</p><p>Here are excerpts from the article from the WSJ, with my emphasis in <b>bold</b>.</p><p><a href="https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-readers-save-the-new-york-times-6ce799f1?st=e39kgqcipge3ekz&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink" target="_blank">https://www.wsj.com/articles/can-readers-save-the-new-york-times-6ce799f1?st=e39kgqcipge3ekz&reflink=desktopwebshare_permalink</a></p><p>In the context of the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, the "experts" might consider their audience instead of their academic peers in the M2C/SITH bubble.</p><p>Excerpts:</p><div class="article-header css-exmfr e1wkb4h44" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: Retina, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; grid-area: article-header; margin-bottom: 25px; margin-top: 10px;"><div class="css-j6808u e1noyqgz8" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-left: 10px; margin-right: 10px;"><div class="crawler css-1skj0ht-Box e1vnmyci0" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><div class="css-bsrkcm-Box e1vnmyci0" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-bottom: var(--spacing-spacer-8);"><h1 class="css-1hch5ce-StyledHeadline e1ipbpvp0" style="--headline-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --headline-link-hover-color: var(--color-blue); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--headline-font-color); font-family: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-font-family); font-size: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-font-size); font-style: var(--font-style-italic); font-weight: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-font-weight); line-height: var(--typography-headline-opinion-xxl-line-height); margin: 0px;">Can Readers Save the New York Times?</h1></div><h2 class="css-jiugt2-Dek-Dek e1jnru6p0" style="--headline-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --headline-link-hover-color: var(--color-blue); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--secondary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-font-family); font-size: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-font-size); font-weight: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-font-weight); line-height: var(--typography-subheading-standard-m-line-height); margin: 0px;">There’s fresh evidence that the newspaper’s customers are more reasonable than its writers.</h2></div></div></div><article class="css-15rv4ep e1wkb4h45" style="background-color: white; box-sizing: border-box; font-family: Retina, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 17px; grid-area: article-body;"><div id="cx-articlecover" style="box-sizing: border-box;"></div><div class="crawler css-symnra eui4bu22" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-left: 10px; margin-right: 10px;"><div class="eui4bu21 css-hb9xd5" style="box-sizing: border-box; direction: var(--article-direction); margin-block-end: 8px;"><hr aria-hidden="true" class="css-5t4n5h" data-testid="divider" style="border-bottom-width: 0px; 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display: inline-flex; margin-left: calc(8px); margin-right: calc(8px);"><div class="eh42cdm4 css-5h3nb1-AuthoringContent" style="box-sizing: border-box; width: 154.425px;"><div class="css-1mfi1zu" style="-webkit-box-pack: justify; align-items: flex-start; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; justify-content: space-between; margin-left: calc(-10px); margin-right: calc(-10px); padding-block: 4px;"><div class="css-11k10ko" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: inline-flex; margin-left: calc(10px); margin-right: calc(10px);"><div class="epvx9354 css-86mgxl-BylineContainer" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #222222; font-family: "Retina Narrow", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 1.629; margin: 0px; padding: 0.5px 0px;"><p class="epvx9352 css-1s90smj-AuthorPlaintext" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; margin: 0px;">By </p><a aria-label="Author page for James Freeman" class="epvx9353 css-1sa9hat-AuthorLink" data-testid="author-link" href="https://www.wsj.com/news/author/james-freeman" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: #876438; display: inline-block; text-decoration-line: none; transition-duration: 200ms, 200ms; transition-property: color, fill; transition-timing-function: cubic-bezier(0, 0, 0.5, 1), cubic-bezier(0, 0, 0.5, 1);" target="_blank"><span class="css-17x5lw" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: 22.8px; justify-content: flex-start;"><span class="css-1wc2zh5" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: block; margin: 0px;">James Freeman</span></span></a><div class="epvx9351 css-6fbmdd-FollowButton" style="box-sizing: border-box; display: inline; margin-inline: 4px;"><ufc-follow-author-widget author-id="5461" author-name="James Freeman" class="hydrated" dark-mode="false" panda-api="https://follow-api.wsj.com" product="wsj" signin-url="https://www.wsj.com/client/login?target=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.wsj.com%2Farticles%2Fcan-readers-save-the-new-york-times-6ce799f1" style="box-sizing: border-box; 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flex-direction: row; gap: 8px; justify-content: center; left: 586.933px; max-width: 700px; opacity: 0; padding: 8px; position: absolute; transform: translate(-50%); visibility: hidden; width: 700px; z-index: 1;" tabindex="0"><div class="snackbar-description" style="flex: 3 1 0%;"><span class="snackbar-message" face="Retina, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" style="font-size: 0.875rem; letter-spacing: 0em; line-height: 1.429; margin-bottom: 0rem;"></span></div></div></ufc-snackbar></ufc-follow-widget></ufc-follow-author-widget></div></div></div></div><div class="css-11paagg" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin-block-start: 8px;"><div class="css-nr8oy5" style="-webkit-box-align: center; -webkit-box-pack: start; align-items: center; box-sizing: border-box; display: flex; flex-direction: row; height: auto; justify-content: flex-start;"><p class="es486sg0 css-1klckc5-TimeTag" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: #6f6f6f; display: inline-block; font-family: "Retina Narrow", Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif; font-size: 14px; font-stretch: normal; letter-spacing: 0px; line-height: 20px; margin: 0px; padding: 0.5px 0px;">Jan. 26, 2024 6:00 pm </p></div></div></div></div></div></div><section class="ef4qpkp0 css-y2scx8-Container e1noyqgz20" style="box-sizing: border-box; position: relative; width: 620px;"><div class="media-layout css-gly1v4-Layout-baseCss ertdlv30" data-inset_type="" data-layout="inline" data-sub_type="" data-type="image" style="background: var(--primary-background-color); box-sizing: border-box; clear: both; margin: 0px 32px 22px 0px; width: 620px;"><figure class="css-x5rdl7-Figure ebruzsj0" style="box-sizing: border-box; margin: 0px;"><picture class="css-l4lngz" style="border-radius: 0px; box-sizing: border-box; display: block; height: auto; padding-top: 0px; position: relative; width: 620px;"><img alt="image" class="css-gt0p44" height="467" sizes="(max-width: 639px) 100vw, (max-width: 979px) 620px, (max-width: 1299px) 540px, 700px" src="https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=700&height=467" srcset="https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=540&size=1.5 540w, https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=620&size=1.5 620w, https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=639&size=1.5 639w, https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=700&size=1.5 700w, https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=700&size=1.5&pixel_ratio=1.5 1050w, https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=700&size=1.5&pixel_ratio=2 1400w, https://images.wsj.net/im-917967/?width=700&size=1.5&pixel_ratio=3 2100w" style="animation: 300ms ease 0s 1 normal none running fadeIn; border-radius: inherit; box-sizing: border-box; display: block; height: auto; margin-bottom: 8px; max-width: 100%; opacity: 1; position: static; width: 620px;" width="700" /></picture></figure><figcaption class="eihhvrm0 css-149553h-FigcaptionDefault-FigcaptionItem eihhvrm1" style="box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--secondary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-caption-font-family); font-weight: var(--font-weight-light);"><span class="e1m33gv80 css-426zcb-CaptionSpan e1m33gv81" style="box-sizing: border-box; font-size: calc((14 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); line-height: calc(1.33333); margin-bottom: 4px;"></span><span class="css-7jz429-Credit eq0esvu0" style="box-sizing: border-box; direction: var(--article-direction); font-size: 14px; line-height: calc(1.33333); text-transform: uppercase;"><span style="box-sizing: border-box;">PHOTO: </span>MARK LENNIHAN/ASSOCIATED PRESS</span></figcaption></div><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Some consumers looking for traditional standards of journalism have given up on the <a class="css-1h1us5y-StyledLink el06won0" data-type="phrase" href="https://www.wsj.com/market-data/quotes/NYT" style="box-sizing: border-box;">New York Times</a>, but <b>reform is still possible at the newspaper</b>. That’s because the Gray Lady’s modern habit of <b>catering to a fiercely ideological slice of the reading public seems to be driven more by its employees than by its customers.</b> This week brings another in a series of recent examples in which readers are trying valiantly to pull the Times toward the reasonable center. Why such readers are still subscribing is a question for another day, but as long as they’re paid up they might be able to exert a positive influence.</p><p></p><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;">The latest issue involves violent crime and accountability. “Some readers were <em class="css-i6hrxa-Italic e1ofiv6m0" data-type="emphasis" style="box-sizing: border-box;">very</em> unhappy with me over the weekend,” writes columnist Nicholas Kristof in the paper’s Opinion Today email newsletter. He explains:</p><div class="paywall css-1u1nl00-PaywalledContentContainer e1qcjy9n0" style="box-sizing: border-box;"><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">I <a class="css-1h1us5y-StyledLink el06won0" data-type="link" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/20/opinion/trauma-pain-assault.html" rel="" style="box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">wrote a column</a> about an old friend, Bill Beard, who died recently after long struggles with drugs and crime. I said he was “a good man,” and then wrote about how he had brutalized a young woman who worked at a convenience store that he tried to rob. I used the column to explore how pain is transitive — hurt people hurt people. Millions of Americans who have been left behind not only suffer greatly but also sometimes inflict great suffering on others...</blockquote><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">Many readers were offended at what they saw as me writing a sympathetic portrait of a man who had committed an atrocious crime... Some thought my focus should have been on Betty Gerhardt, the woman whom Bill attacked (who also died recently).</blockquote><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><a class="css-1h1us5y-StyledLink el06won0" data-type="link" href="https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/20/opinion/trauma-pain-assault.html" rel="" style="box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">In the column</a> Mr. Kristof had attempted to put the attack in a larger context:</p><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">If the federal minimum wage of 1968 had kept pace with inflation and productivity, it would now be more than $25 an hour. Instead, it’s stuck at $7.25.</blockquote><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">The Princeton economists Anne Case and Angus Deaton popularized the term “deaths of despair” for the tumbling life expectancy among working-class Americans since 2010, but the tragedy goes far beyond the staggering mortality. For each person who dies from drugs, alcohol and suicide, many others are mired in addiction and heap pain on their families. Gerhardt told me that she had been addicted to heroin for years, underscoring how widespread this malady is: Perpetrator and victim shared a parallel suffering, and both died before the age of 65.</blockquote><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;">This last phrase could perhaps make it sound like they were in this together, but it was the perpetrator who inflicted enormous suffering on Betty Gerhardt with an attack that left her bloody and unconscious on the shop floor .. .—and then haunted with fear for the rest of her life.</p><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;">Perhaps ironically, even Mr. Kristof’s old friend the perpetrator had tried to warn him off the idea that society is responsible when individuals commit such crimes. The Timesman quotes his old friend: “Nobody else made me do it. How can you blame anybody else?”</p><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><b>A number of readers have been asking the same question, and it may take some time for them to win over the columnist.</b> In this week’s email after the reader furor, Mr. Kristof writes:</p><div class="ad-portal" style="box-sizing: border-box;"></div><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">It’s fair to insist on personal responsibility for people like Bill, and to hold him accountable... But I believe we also have to have a difficult conversation about our collective responsibility when so many lives like Bill’s go off the rails — and about how we as a society can do better.</blockquote><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><b>Fortunately there are still some Times readers who don’t believe in collective guilt.</b> Last fall they reacted to a Times column <a class="css-1h1us5y-StyledLink el06won0" data-type="link" href="https://www.wsj.com/articles/if-you-think-socialism-is-unpopular-now-660556cb?mod=article_inline" rel="" style="box-sizing: border-box;" target="_blank">about</a> Boston University’s troubled Center for Antiracist Research, led by Ibram X. Kendi, who specializes in wholesale denunciations of American society. Times columnist Michelle Goldberg wrote that “it’s important to understand that the center’s apparent implosion is more the result of a failed funding model than a failed ideology. It exemplifies the lamentable tendency among left-leaning donors to chase fads and celebrities rather than build sustainable institutions.”</p><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;">As your humble correspondent noted at the time, <b>Times readers might have been struggling to recall a time when the newspaper was dismissing Mr. Kendi’s claims of systemic racism as a celebrity-driven fad.</b> Still, one might have expected the paper’s customers to share Ms. Goldberg’s reluctance to blame his ideology. <b>But numerous Times readers were having none of it, and took to the comments section to critique Mr. Kendi’s work. </b>One Times reader commented:</p><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">no, Michelle, it’s not simply a failed funding model. <b>It’s a failing set of ideas</b>, and maybe the realization that the religious model (a set of unprovable beliefs, evildoers, victims, martyrs, etc) is not a great foundation for an academic center. <b>Liberals and moderates have had a few years now to take a look at all of this and formulate a reasonable reply, and it is mostly, “NO.”</b></blockquote><div class="ad-portal" style="box-sizing: border-box;"></div><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;">In a similar vein, another commented:</p><blockquote class="css-oqk0mc-Blockquote e1w9lx6l0" data-type="blockquote" style="border-left: 1px solid rgb(128, 124, 120); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 22px 40px 30px 60px; overflow-wrap: break-word; padding: 0px 0px 0px 20px;">The problem is that a University should not build research centers around ideologies, failed or otherwise. Centers like this are not trying to understand what is or why in an objective manner. <b>They are trying to promote a social and political agenda.</b> Efforts like this have no place on campus.</blockquote><p class="css-k3zb6l-Paragraph e1e4oisd0" data-type="paragraph" style="--summary-bullet-small-font-color: var(--primary-text-color); --summary-font-color: var(--secondary-text-color); box-sizing: border-box; color: var(--primary-text-color); direction: var(--article-direction); font-family: var(--article-font-family); font-size: calc((17 / var(--article-base-font-size)) * var(--article-text-size-scale) * 1rem); font-weight: var(--article-font-weight); line-height: calc(1.58824); margin: 0px 0px 1em; overflow-wrap: break-word;"><b>Let’s hope that readers continue to initiate the difficult conversations needed to reform the troubled institution called the New York Times.</b> But of course they have neither an individual nor a collective responsibility to subscribe.</p></div></section></div></article>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-88631107701998342822024-01-28T10:40:00.000-08:002024-01-28T10:40:18.771-08:00Another must-see podcast: Did Joseph Smith cancel Orson Pratt's hemispheric theory<p>Last week I did an interview with Troy Ables (the Last Dispensation podcast) from New Zealand. This one deals with a long-forgotten (or overlooked) aspect of the Wentworth letter that Joseph wrote and had published in the <i>Times and Seasons</i> in 1842.</p><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqXQO73jwPNZrbEbsAY_AanGDLpbldjRgUoIM2OrmsF-m6ow9r3cbwFHn8lnO8xzszr36pL-uOwAKwfXp5g_f0GYiJs-SxnmjHXEwV8F4xgyR4V2_ClnEkrBg7AcCZ2FnsZFYjZzm0Qlr8WVKX8_R39XK0wELDjdR8oOIhPj3CYfUAdpVme_H1Seih5BQ/s601/Podcast%20TLD%20Jan%20debunking%20Orson%20Pratt.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" data-original-height="460" data-original-width="601" height="245" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEiqXQO73jwPNZrbEbsAY_AanGDLpbldjRgUoIM2OrmsF-m6ow9r3cbwFHn8lnO8xzszr36pL-uOwAKwfXp5g_f0GYiJs-SxnmjHXEwV8F4xgyR4V2_ClnEkrBg7AcCZ2FnsZFYjZzm0Qlr8WVKX8_R39XK0wELDjdR8oOIhPj3CYfUAdpVme_H1Seih5BQ/s320/Podcast%20TLD%20Jan%20debunking%20Orson%20Pratt.jpg" width="320" /></a></div><div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;"><br /></div><div><br /></div><div>As we discuss in the podcast, Joseph adapted the Wentworth letter from an 1840 pamphlet written by Orson Pratt. Unfortunately, most Latter-day Saints today <b>have never seen the entire Wentworth letter</b> because the lesson manual, <i>Teachings of the Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith</i>, <b>censored </b>a critical part of the Wentworth letter.</div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng" style="background-color: white; color: #2288bb; text-decoration-line: none;">https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/teachings-joseph-smith/chapter-38?lang=eng</a></div><div><br /></div><div>For most Latter-day Saints, especially non-English speakers, <b>this is the only version of the Wentworth letter they will ever see.</b></div><div><br /></div><div>It's an astonishing story, particularly because Joseph started the letter by writing, <span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: inherit;">“</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #2b00fe; font-family: inherit;">As Mr. Bastow has taken the proper steps to obtain correct information all that I shall ask at his hands, is, that he publish the account entire, ungarnished, and without misrepresentation.</span><span style="background-color: white; color: #222222; font-family: inherit;">”</span></div><div><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: inherit;"><a href="https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/1" style="color: #2288bb; text-decoration-line: none;">https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/church-history-1-march-1842/1</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class="MsoNormal" style="background-color: white; color: #222222;"><span style="font-family: inherit;">As it turns out, Joseph didn’t need to worry about Mr. Bastow. The group that declined to publish the Wentworth letter “entire, ungarnished and without misrepresentation” was the Curriculum Department that published the lesson manual. </span></p></div><div>For those interested in a detailed comparison to supplement the podcast, see </div><div><br /></div><div><a href="https://www.lettervii.com/2023/11/hemispheric-model-in-church-history.html" target="_blank">https://www.lettervii.com/2023/11/hemispheric-model-in-church-history.html</a></div><div>_____</div><div><br /></div><div><br /></div>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6275804374019732213.post-62263010718287848812024-01-27T01:56:00.000-08:002024-01-27T01:56:50.437-08:00Must-see Podcast: Richard Bushman's book on the Gold Plates<p>Mormon Book Reviews posted an awesome, must-see video. Among other things, we discussed the two sets of plates scenario, the influence of Jonathan Edwards, and the way everyone can work together to establish Zion.</p><p><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcBBQPMW3zQ&t=62s" target="_blank">https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JcBBQPMW3zQ&t=62s</a></p><table align="center" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><tbody><tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgL5gLS_V0tK4ICDAiBn0UfRPN5DoVqQhF1hS4wpgS6y1hl7nxr3clXMK5k8VwAcQGefrtCYhaSh4HFmCsRM8QnFqJstf9OCkg_0pEV3M1mUbk9_WK1gY1aAuzeNl96Mg6yDbXyxMfZEIojFFiYk4zhiOPG0hSNb0Fyl2mVtxz5L-1dMXF2naA1u8J0DAY/s1506/Podcast%20MBR%20Bushman.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" data-original-height="934" data-original-width="1506" height="248" src="https://blogger.googleusercontent.com/img/b/R29vZ2xl/AVvXsEgL5gLS_V0tK4ICDAiBn0UfRPN5DoVqQhF1hS4wpgS6y1hl7nxr3clXMK5k8VwAcQGefrtCYhaSh4HFmCsRM8QnFqJstf9OCkg_0pEV3M1mUbk9_WK1gY1aAuzeNl96Mg6yDbXyxMfZEIojFFiYk4zhiOPG0hSNb0Fyl2mVtxz5L-1dMXF2naA1u8J0DAY/w400-h248/Podcast%20MBR%20Bushman.jpg" width="400" /></a></td></tr><tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;">(click to enlarge)</td></tr></tbody></table><br /><p>Steve Pynakker is doing a phenomenal job bringing people together through dialog and discussion. The common threads are (i) interest in the Restoration and (ii) interest in Jesus Christ. </p><p>Not only is he building bridges among the various Restoration groups (evangelical and Book of Mormon enthusiasts), but also among Latter-day Saints who have different interpretations of Church history and the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.</p><p>Remember, we can all produce "no more contention" by pursuing clarity, charity, and understanding.</p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p><p><br /></p>jonathan3dhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05379975395372054926noreply@blogger.com0