long ago ideas

“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Long ago, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery conquered false claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction or that it came through a stone in a hat. But these old claims have resurfaced in recent years. To conquer them again, we have to return to what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Monday, May 5, 2025

Brant Gardner, M2C, and Occam's Razon

Brant Gardner is an awesome guy, a careful scholar, a faithful Latter-day Saint, etc. His series of articles we've discussed on this blog purport to compare the "Heartland" scenario with the "Mesoamerican" scenario. The series is highly useful, although probably not for the reasons Brant had in mind.

He is illustrating the Occam's Razor principle:

 "Among competing hypotheses, the one with the fewest assumptions should be selected."

Or, alternatively

• Simple assumptions are often right.

• Don't overcomplicate things with too many assumptions.

_____

Regarding the setting of the Book of Mormon, there is a simple assumption v. multiple cascading assumptions. 

Brant and other M2Cers reject the simple assumption in favor of the complicated series of assumptions. Brant further  See what you think.

The simple assumption: 

1. Moroni identified the hill in New York as Cumorah the first time he met Joseph Smith.

This assumption is corroborated by Lucy Mack Smith's account of that visit, by D&C 12:20, and by everything Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, and all of Joseph's contemporaries and successors in Church leadership said about Cumorah. This includes Oliver's account of personally visiting Mormon's repository of Nephite records in the hill Cumorah in New York. 

The M2C assumptions: 

1. Moroni did not identify the hill in New York as Cumorah the first time he met Joseph Smith.

2. Joseph Smith didn't know where an of the Book of Mormon events took place.

3. Lucy Mack Smith misremembered what Joseph told her about Moroni's first visit and about passing by the Hill Cumorah where he met with Moroni in early 1827.

4. In D&C 128:20, Joseph Smith incorrectly reported "Glad tidings from Cumorah... the book to be revealed" because he didn't learn about Cumorah until he was translating Mormon 6:6 in 1829.

5. David Whitmer misremembered when he said he had a specific memory of the first time he heard the word "Cumorah" in 1829, directly from the messenger whom Joseph had identified as one of the Three Nephites and to whom Joseph had given the abridged plates in Harmony when the messenger said he was taking them to Cumorah. 

6, Oliver Cowdery (or another unknown person) at some unspecified date started a folk tradition that Cumorah was in New York, based on an incorrect and ignorant assumption.

7. When Oliver, as Assistant President of the Church in 1835, published an article claiming that it was a fact that the hill in New York was the Cumorah of Mormon 6:6, he was merely expressing an incorrect folk tradition. (Letter VII)

8. Joseph, for unexplained reasons, passively adopted Oliver's erroneous speculation and had it widely re-published, including in the 1841 Times and Seasons.

9. Joseph, who wrote very little himself, and, according to Wilford Woodruff, barely had time to sign documents they prepared for him, nevertheless wrote a series of articles in the 1842 Times and Seasons about Central America that he left anonymous (signed Ed.) for unknown reasons.

10, Those 1842 articles were either (i) prophetic confirmation of a Mesoamerican setting or (ii) evidence that Joseph relied on scholarship to learn about the setting of the Book of Mormon.

11. Modern LDS scholars have correctly determined that (i) early Church members had incorrect beliefs about the location of Cumorah and (ii) Cumorah cannot be in New York because that is too far from Mesoamerica.

12. All Church leaders who reaffirmed or corroborated what Joseph and Oliver said about Cumorah were also wrong because they merely expressed their own incorrect opinions.


Again: Which set of assumptions makes the most sense to you?





Friday, May 2, 2025

2025 update on Hill Cumorah Expedition Team, Inc

Some Latter-day Saints may not be familiar with Hill Cumorah Expedition Team, Inc.

This is a group of believers in the Book of Mormon who have been searching for the hill Cumorah in Mesoamerica for over 20 years. They have a website with presentations and newsletters, which you can see here:

https://hillcumorahexpeditionteam.com/#

They are M2Cers, meaning they reject what the prophets have taught about the Hill Cumorah in New York. Most of them are not LDS anyway, so they don't care what LDS prophets have taught, but they also reject what Oliver Cowdery, David Whitmer, Lucy Mack Smith, etc., said about Cumorah. 

They are great people. I've attended their congregation (the Buckner Congregation of the Community of Christ church) and I've visited with David B. Brown, who writes much of their content. He's a wonderful guy, well-informed, smart, experienced, etc.

With respect to the FAITH model, David and I agree on the Facts. 

We both recognize what Oliver wrote in Letter VII. We both agree that Joseph had Letter VII copied into his journal (http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90), that Joseph had it republished in the Times and Seasons, that Lucy Mack Smith and Oliver Cowdery explained it was Moroni who first identified the hill as Cumorah, etc. 

We also agree on the fact of the text of the Book of Mormon; i.e., neither of us uses a different translation (although we use different versions with different chapters and verses).

Our differences begin with the Assumptions. He and I just have a different starting assumption about what Oliver Cowdery declared was a fact; i.e., that the hill Cumorah/Ramah is in New York. He assumes Oliver was speculating and was wrong. I assume Oliver told the truth from his own personal experience.

We also disagree about Inferences from the text, such as the one I mention at the end of this post. These differences 

And we're happy to agree to disagree, pursuant to multiple working hypotheses, recognizing we're both working in good faith with no animosity or contention.

I bring this up partly to show the difference between how HCETI approaches the topic and how the LDS M2Cers become angry and agitated whenever anyone challenges their theories.

It's also interesting because their view of M2C differs from that promoted by Brant Gardner and other M2Cers. Here's their map, for example.

(click to enlarge)

You might wonder why their "land northward" is west of everything else. They explain their rationale in their latest newsletter, which you can read here:

https://assets.nicepagecdn.com/05349e96/6353314/files/NewsletterVol19Issue1.1.pdf

In the spirit of clarity, charity and understanding, and recognizing multiple working hypotheses, I consider their rationale as valid as anyone else's, given our different starting assumptions.

See what you think.

_____

Here's an example of how people can draw different inferences from the same text.

In his newsletter, David writes, "the first usage [of "eastward'] is by Nephi in his description of their journey across the ocean."

Here is the passage he refers to:

And it came to pass that we did again take our journey in the wilderness; and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth.

(LDS edition 1 Nephi 17:1)

David infers that in this passage, Nephi described the entirety of his journey all the way to the promised land; i.e., including his "journey across the ocean." 

That's not an irrational assumption. Other M2Cers make that same assumption to explain why they think Lehi crossed the Pacific Ocean to reach the western shore of Mesoamerica.

However, when I read the same passage, I infer that Nephi described his overland journey to the land Bountiful. After mentioning "eastward" Nephi writes, 

"we did sojourn for the space of many years, yea, even eight years in the wilderness. And we did come to the land which we called Bountiful... And we beheld the sea, which we called Irreantum, which, being interpreted, is many waters."

In my view, Nephi's reference to "nearly eastward" refers to his "journey in the wilderness," not to his much later voyage across the many waters. 

I've explained elsewhere why I think Lehi sailed around Africa, citing both scripture and real-world conditions. https://www.mobom.org/lehi-cross-ocean

But I'm fine with people believing whatever they want and I encourage every believer in the Book of Mormon, LDS or otherwise, to become educated about the multiple working hypotheses and make their own informed decisions.

Most of all, I encourage everyone to pursue clarity, charity and understanding.

_____

References to Lehi's journey:





Thursday, May 1, 2025

The Caste system in LDS media

I've been writing about the end of M2C and SITH because the Internet has enabled Latter-day Saints to break free of the constraints (chains) of certain dominant LDS scholars. Thanks to the Joseph Smith Papers, everyone (well, every English-speaking person) can read the original historical documents for themselves, without having that content filtered through the M2C and SITH scholars. This transparency empowers Latter-day Saints to make informed decisions, which is why we're seeing the end of M2C and SITH.

One of the most frequent questions people ask me is how M2C and SITH persist, now that Latter-day Saints have access to the teachings of the prophets.

The answer is partly that having access is not the same as actually accessing the material. Thanks to the work of the M2C and SITH scholars, few Latter-day Saints know what the prophets have taught on these topics. I've given lots of examples here: https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/

But the other part of the answer is that LDS social media continues to promote M2C and SITH through certain organizations that control the narratives.

Along these lines, Ward Radio released an important video titled 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qo7a58suLyw


It's worth watching or listening to for lots of reasons. 

They discuss the way certain organizations have used their funding to control LDS content. Back in the day I used to refer to the "citation cartel" which controlled LDS academia by allowing publication only of content that confirmed the M2C and SITH biases of the editors. Some people asked me to stop using the term, deeming it too pejorative. It was a reasonable request, so I stopped using the term in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding. 

But the point remains: in our day, people don't want to be told what to think. They prefer transparency and openness. This is why the legacy scholars who were used to having students who believed whatever they said are finding it difficult to adapt.

And this is why they refuse to engage in open dialog, with fair, accurate comparisons of different ideas. I've shown lots of examples of that on this blog and on https://interpreterpeerreviews.blogspot.com/

A good example of the type of comparison the M2C/SITH scholars object to is here:

https://www.lettervii.com/2025/04/simple-comparison-scholars-vs-prophets.html

It will be interesting to see how this plays out now that Ward Radio is making it more public.

Good for them. 

Here are some excerpts:


...