long ago ideas

“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Long ago, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery conquered false claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction or that it came through a stone in a hat. But these old claims have resurfaced in recent years. To conquer them again, we have to return to what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Monday, September 30, 2024

14th article of faith

Thought experiments. Which of the following two proposed versions of a 14th Article of Faith would represent what you believe? 

14th Article of Faith: We believe what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

14th Article of Faith: We believe that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery speculated and misled everyone about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon because we prefer the teachings of modern scholars, including SITH and M2C.

Saturday, September 28, 2024

SITH in Rough Stone Rolling


Many people ask me about Rough Stone Rolling's depiction of the "stone-in-the-hat" (SITH) scenario. 

I did a close review of that section of Rough Stone Rolling, which is now at mobom.org, here:

https://www.mobom.org/rsr-review

The problem arises from the editorial decision in that book to portray assumptions, inferences, and theories as facts.

For example, it is a fact that so-and-so wrote something down. Maybe it's a first-person account, or a second-hand account (such as an account by a reporter or interviewer), or even third-hand. But the existence of the account, which is factual, does not make the account itself factual.

A person can write a statement such as "the car was red." The existence of the statement is a fact, but it is merely evidence that the car was actually red. If we, after reading the statement, say "the car was red," we are assuming the person told the truth, but if we are precise (clear), we can say only that so-and-so said the car was red.

But many historians simply write "the car was red," rationalizing that they have "a source."

Because this is such a common problem with the way historians write history, I can't tell if they are trained to write this way, if they are unaware of the problem, or if they are simply stating their beliefs as if they were facts. 

Or maybe they are just trying to simplify history to make it readable for the public. But if that's the case, it's a serious disservice when they don't clarify the difference between facts and assumptions/inferences/theories.

This is why I often assess things using the FAITH model (Facts, Assumptions, Inferences, Theories and Hypotheses). It seems simple enough.

In the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding, clarity comes first, and that requires applying the FAITH model to historical evidence.

Friday, September 27, 2024

SITH in federal court

[Note: originally posted at https://funwithsith.blogspot.com/2024/09/sith-in-federal-court.html.]

SITH (the "stone-in-the-hat" narrative about the translation that refutes what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery always said about the translation), is now being litigated at the appellate level in federal court.

As if SITH wasn't bad enough from a purely historical perspective.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/09/25/lds-tithing-church-lawyers-push/

(click to enlarge)

The media often uses this photo of the "seer stone" that doesn't match the description Emma and David gave, and can't be the one that Wilford Woodruff claimed was the Urim and Thummim in Nauvoo anyway (assuming the narrative that this is the one Oliver Cowdery had is true, which is questionable given the poor chain of custody). 

Notice the caption under the image: "(Rick Bowmer | The Associated Press) A picture of the "seer stone," shown in 2015, that Latter-day Saints believe church founder Joseph Smith used to help translate the Book of Mormon."

The caption doesn't reflect that there are at least a few Latter-day Saints who still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught, such as Joseph's statement here:

I obtained them [the plates] and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10

Neither Joseph nor Oliver ever once said or implied that Joseph used a seer stone.

And yet, in federal court, the Church's own lawyer questioned what Joseph and Oliver said:

“Isn’t that a bizarre thing to say?” the church’s lead lawyer said of the plaintiffs. “They say specifically, ‘We don’t dispute that the Book of Mormon is true. We don’t dispute that it was translated by the gift and power of God. We dispute whether it was translated using the Urim and Thummim, a clear stone or an opaque stone.

“That almost sounds silly,” he continued. “Churches have the right to define, develop and evolve their own history. ... Who knows what happened in 1820 or whether he sat at a table and looked at gold plates?

Think how different this would all be if LDS scholars had stuck with what Joseph and Oliver (and their successors in Church leadership) had said. 

But instead, the scholars decided Mormonism Unvailed, David Whitmer, and Emma's dubious "Last Testimony" have more credibility than Joseph and Oliver.

For a discussion of the SITH problem, see


The whole thing is an absurd mess, partly because of Rough Stone Rolling and John Dehlin's "Faith Crisis Report" that led to the Gospel Topics Essay on Book of Mormon Translation which doesn't even quote what Joseph and Oliver said.

And of course we have the famous scholars at Scripture Central and the Interpreter continuing to promote the SITH nonsense.

More later...


Thursday, September 26, 2024

So many resources!

Nearly every day I hear from people who have questions about various LDS topics, especially Church history and the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. 

Rarely do people ask a question I haven't addressed, but they don't know where to look.

"become acquainted with all good books"

Eventually we'll get all the material organized at the Museum of the Book of Mormon (mobom.org), but for now here are some quick references. The goal, as always, is to eliminate contention by pursuing clarity, charity and understanding, recognizing that when answers are unclear, there are multiple working hypotheses that we can all learn from as we make informed decisions.

Questions about LDS Historical narratives.

See https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/, including the pages. You can use the search box to find relevant material in the posts.

Questions about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

Overall, see https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

For North American setting, see https://www.lettervii.com/

For M2C (Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs) setting, there are two main sites.

- problems with M2C: https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/

- promoting M2C: https://bookofmormoncentral.org/

Note: I wish I could refer people to Scripture Central/Book of Mormon Central, which has spent millions of dollars creating an extensive website with hundreds of essays (Kno-Whys) on various topics. However, the management of Scripture Central insists on promoting SITH and M2C, and that bias infects the content so deeply that the site is untrustworthy. Scripture Central refuses to follow basic academic standards to avoid bias and promote clarity, charity and understanding. Instead, the management of Scripture Central seeks to divide Latter-day Saints along ideological lines. 

Tuesday, September 24, 2024

Tragic Lebanon - and M2C, of course

It's tragic to see the ongoing destruction in Lebanon and Israel. Lebanon has been one my favorite counties in the Middle-East, partly because they speak French there (or used to when I was there). Some nostalgic photos from my time there.

filming in Lebanon

The Cedars of God site
(cedars of Lebanon in the Kadisha Valley of Bsharre, Lebanon)

[Blogger wouldn't let me upload photos of me with women wearing hijab, even though they were the archaeologists who took us to Baalbek, Byblos, Sidon and other sites. So I cropped them out.]


As long as I'm reminiscing, here's a photo from the time I crossed the Suez canal on a ferry.


And some pics from back in the day when I was young and ignorant and still believed M2C because I trusted the "experts" at FARMS, FairMormon, etc., haha. Photos of those youthful days reminds me how easy it is for college students to be so easily indoctrinated by their professors.






Friday, September 20, 2024

Scripture Central's brainwashing operation

I often reiterate that I'm fine with people believing whatever they want. But there's a caveat. I assume people want to make informed, not arbitrary or manipulated decisions.

Of all people, Latter-day Saints should be trusted to make good informed decisions. As President Nelson has taught, "Good inspiration is based upon good information."

But the management and staff of Scripture Central disagree. 

We can all see that Latter-day Saints are highly confused about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. It's no wonder that this confusion causes so many people, both Latter-day Saints and otherwise, to question the "keystone of our religion."

Why does this confusion persist?

Because of one thing.

What Joseph and Oliver (along with their contemporaries and successors) once made perfectly clear--that (i) Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates, and (ii) the hill Cumorah/Ramah is in western New York--has been obliterated by an onslaught of brainwashing by LDS intellectuals who should know better.

It's not easy to persuade Latter-day Saints to reject the teachings of the prophets about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. That's why Scripture Central resorts to brainwashing.  

One useful definition of brainwashing explains the process: "to make someone believe something by repeatedly telling them that it is true and preventing other information from reaching them." 

When Scripture Central presents this image of Mormon and Moroni, we can all see it is outright brainwashing:

Mormon and Moroni, according to Scripture Central
(click to enlarge)

Yet this is the image that John W. (Jack) Welch presented to hundreds of BYU-Hawaii students. It will be the message of Scripture Central's "Moroni Day Gala."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2WPqJbtB8

_____

It's ironic that even on Moroni Day, Scripture Central will not inform its audience, readers, viewers and listeners of some of the basic information we have about Moroni. https://www.mobom.org/moroni-day

Instead, we have Tyler Griffin brainwashing his students and thousands of YouTube viewers by depicting Christ appearing at a pagan Mayan temple.

Tyler Griffin depicting Christ appearing at a Mayan temple
(click to enlarge)

https://scripturecentral.org/video/trending-video-en-9642

This seems incredible, but this is the reality we're dealing with.

Scripture Central doesn't want people to make informed decisions by enabling people to (i) know what Joseph and Oliver taught and (ii) compare different interpretations of evidence regarding the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

Instead, Scripture Central relies on brainwashing and indoctrinating people to accept M2C.

_____

BTW, the image of Mormon and Moroni is the image that Scripture Central presents to thousands of users of its "ScripturePlus" software, which was designed to brainwash users into accepting M2C by enticing them away from the Church's own far more credible, objective and reliable Gospel Library app.

https://www.scriptureplus.org/

Scripture Plus even has a "Dark Mode," which is a fitting term for its M2C indoctrination.

Dark Mode - Scripture Plus




Thursday, September 19, 2024

Scripture Central: Money, M2C, SITH, Kno-Whys, etc.

Before discussing Scripture Central, here are some other new posts.

One at ldshistoricalnarratives about Joseph Smith's early years.

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/09/joseph-smith-early-years.html

One at the FunWithSITH blog about John Whitmer:

https://funwithsith.blogspot.com/2024/09/sith-sayers-omit-testimony-of-u.html

_____

Now, Scripture Central.

You can get your $250/plate tickets for Scripture Central's "Moroni Day Gala" on Sept 20, 2024, here:

https://scripturecentral.org/event/moroni-day-2024

We love everyone at Scripture Central and we respect the good work they do. Like everyone at Scripture Central, we also love the Book of Mormon and other scriptures, and are eager to continue sharing the gospel with the entire world. We want to bring people to Christ and encourage them to enter and stay on the covenant path.

And as you can see, the dinner menu for the Gala is impressive.

open-minded, accommodating menu
(click to enlarge)
You can get your salmon, your filet mignon, or your quinoa & Garbanzo cake (GF/NF/VGN).

Scripture Central recognizes that people have different preferences when it comes to food. 

We might say that people have different values and priorities about what they eat.

If Scripture Central was as open-minded and accommodating intellectually as they are with their menu, I'd buy 10 tables to support their event.

But as it is now constituted, I won't give Scripture Central a dime, and I don't think any faithful Latter-day Saint should give them a dime.

This dinner menu more open-minded and accommodating than the management and scholars at Scripture Central.
_____

It would be awesome if this menu reflected a new approach at Scripture Central. But if they served a dinner that reflected their intellectual intransigence and confirmation bias, they'd serve everyone pupusas, take it or leave it.

Pupusas from Mesoamerica
Media: Pupusa

As delicious as pupusas can be, they're not for everyone at every meal. They are not the only "acceptable" food, as determined by a handful of influential scholars.

And at the Moroni Day Gala, everyone will get a heaping platter of M2C and SITH. 

Scripture Central thinks the way to avoid contention is by censorship, exclusion and insisting on conformity with the theories of certain intellectuals, instead of "unity through diversity" as our modern prophets teach. 

That's why those of us who still believe the teachings of the prophets seek clarity, charity and understanding, recognizing multiple working hypotheses and encouraging informed decisions, as opposed to dogmatic enforcement of M2C and SITH.

[BTW, if I'm wrong about any of this--if the Moroni Day Gala recognizes and accommodate faithful Latter-day Saints who still believe what the prophets have taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon, I'll happily publish a detailed, warm endorsement of Scripture Central and send them a check.]
_____

Since its inception, I hoped Scripture Central (then Book of Mormon Central) would be intellectually honest, curious, and accommodating of all faithful Latter-day Saints. But sadly, that hope remains just a hope. 

Scripture Central continues to exclude fellow Latter-day Saints who, unlike the management and scholars at Scripture Central, still believe what the prophets have taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. By that I mean, that (as he and Oliver always said) Joseph translated the plates with the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates, and that the hill Cumorah/Ramah is in western New York.

It's nice that Scripture Central raises millions of dollars from faithful Latter-day Saints. They could do a lot of good with it.

And, to be sure, much of the content they produce is solid. They have lots of good reference material in their library and lots of useful tools. I recommend their solid content all the time. Even M2C and SITH are among the multiple working hypotheses people should be aware of. At the Museum of the Book of Mormon (www.mobom.org) we include links to Scripture Central. We even refer people to the Kno-Whys. https://www.mobom.org/scripture-central-kno-whys

But on the other hand...

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On the other hand, Scripture Central still promotes M2C and SITH as the only acceptable beliefs among Latter-day Saints.

Here's how Scripture Central depicts Mormon and Moroni as Mayans, with Cumorah featuring a Mayan temple in southern Mexico. This is from Scripture Central's "Moroni Day" video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IY2WPqJbtB8


Mormon and Moroni as Mayans,
with Cumorah as a Mayan temple?
(click to enlarge)

For those of us who still believe what the prophets have taught about Cumorah/Ramah, this is not only patently absurd but deeply offensive.

However, we're happy to acknowledge multiple working hypotheses and recognize that faithful Latter-day Saints can believe whatever they want.

Then there is this image of Christ appearing at a pagan Mayan temple, as if the Christian Nephites were building such edifices (which are never mentioned nor even hinted at in the Book of Mormon).


Christ appearing at a Mayan temple

M2C and SITH directly refutes what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. Scripture Central promotes the claims of David Whitmer, Mormonism Unvailed, William Smith, Benjamin Winchester, and other detractors instead of what Joseph and Oliver taught. 

Their myopic obsession with M2C and SITH means that Scripture Central (formerly Book of Mormon Central) is not a legitimate academic organization. It's merely an advocacy group for M2C and SITH. 

It's a shame, and I wish it were otherwise. 

There are awesome people involved with Scripture Central, and with the millions of dollars in resources, they could unify and fortify Latter-day Saints everywhere

But instead they promote division and exclusion, all in an effort to protect and promote their pet theories, in which they see the views of an insular group of scholars as more accurate and authoritative than the teachings of the prophets. 

It's incredible. And such a lost opportunity.

But hope springs eternal. I remain optimistic that someday, Scripture Central will live up to its purported aspirations and become a repository that accommodates all faithful views--including the teachings of the prophets about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

_____

For new readers, here are some FAQs about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon:

https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

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M2C visuals:


Nauvoo, 1842: Joseph Smith learning about the Book of Mormon
from the Stephens and Catherwood books

The Book of Mormon as a "Mayan Codex"

BMAF, the corporate owner of Scripture Central

The M2C map, showing Cumorah anywhere except New York.


"We try to remain neutral" while we promote M2C.

Some Latter-day Saints still believe what the prophets have taught...




Wednesday, September 18, 2024

Scripture Central: extrinsic evidence

Scripture Central employees tell me that M2C is based on "science." 

But that's a hoax. 

M2C is pure bias confirmation, based on the assumption of certain scholars that the anonymous 1842 Times and Seasons articles were written by Joseph Smith, Jr. Then these same scholars assume that Joseph Smith didn't know about the setting of the Book of Mormon.

The speculative 1842 Times and Seasons articles about Mesoamerica constituted the original foundation for M2C. In 2005, the 1842 articles were an integral part of the “Worlds of Joseph Smith” symposium at the Library of Congress, celebrating the 200th anniversary of Joseph Smith’s birth.  

One author wrote, 

In 1842, after reading about ancient cities in Central America, Joseph speculated that Book of Mormon lands were located there (fig. 1b) [depicting the Times and Seasons]. I derive two lessons from his speculation: First, Joseph did not know exactly where Book of Mormon lands were; second, he considered their location an important question addressable through scholarship. 

John E. Clark, https://byustudies.byu.edu/article/archaeological-trends-and-the-book-of-mormon-origins

[We discussed this symposium here: https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2015/06/the-worlds-of-joseph-smith.html]

It's amazing to see these scholars make such self-serving claims that (i) Joseph Smith merely "speculated" and (ii) Joseph Smith relied on their profession to figure out where Book of Mormon events took place.

But Scripture Central continues to promote this ideology. The 1842 articles have been cited in innumerable papers, books and presentations that develop and support M2C. 

And then they use the Mesoamerican articles to insist that Joseph, Oliver, and their contemporaries and successors were all wrong about the New York Cumorah/Ramah.


M2C map of "Cumorah" in southern Mexico.

https://geografia.centralldm.es/mapa-modelo/

Notice that this is in Spanish. Apparently Scripture Central doesn't dare present this map in English or on their main site where their donors would see it. We'll discuss this more in the next couple of days.

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This table below compares different approaches to extrinsic evidence. People can believe whatever they want to believe, but we need clarity to make informed decisions. That way we can compare multiple working hypotheses.


Authorities

M2C

Heartland

Relies on BoM text for abstract map of geography

Yes

Yes

Fits BoM text to real-world geography

Yes

Yes

Accepts entire text literally

 - Cardinal directions (N,S,E,W)

 - Animals and plants

 - Surrounded by water

 - Four seas

 - 3 Nephi change face of land

 - Law of Moses

 

No

No

No

No

No

No

 

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Relies on Times and Seasons articles about Stephens

Yes

No

Accepts D&C on Lamanites

No

Yes

Accepts D&C on Cumorah

No

Yes

Accepts D&C on Zarahemla

No

Yes

Accepts Oliver Cowdery on Cumorah in New York

No

Yes

Accepts David Whitmer on Cumorah in New York

No

Yes

Accepts Joseph Smith on Cumorah in New York

No

Yes

Accepts Joseph Smith on mounds in Midwest as evidence of BoM people

No

Yes

Accepts Joseph Smith in Wentworth letter that Lamanites are Indians living in “this country” meaning United States

No

Yes

Accepts archaeology

Yes

Yes

Accepts DNA evidence

No

Yes

Promised land is Mexico/Guatemala

Yes

No

Promised land is US/Canada

No

Yes


Tuesday, September 17, 2024

Scripture Central's M2C rationalization-overview

Scripture Central continues to push M2C (the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory of Book of Mormon Geography). They insist that the "real Cumorah/Ramah" is somewhere in southern Mexico, although they disagree about exactly where and their trips to "discover" Cumorah haven't exactly panned out.

The methodology works like this:

This week leading up to "Moroni Day" we'll pursue clarity, charity and understanding by clarifying the various positions people take on Cumorah/Ramah.


_______________

 This post is adapted from a section in my book The Rational Restoration.

Reframing Cumorah-Identification

Old narratives

Reframe

Faithful: The Hill Cumorah/‌Ramah is in southern Mexico or another location besides New York.

Critical: The Hill Cumorah/Ramah is an imaginary, fictional place.

The Hill Cumorah/Ramah is in western New York, the same hill where Joseph Smith found the plates.

Pursuant to the FAITH model, we first distinguish facts from assumptions and inferences. The relevant facts fall within three basic categories:

(i) Historical documents.

(ii) the text itself.

(iii) extrinsic evidence.

1. Historical documents include documents created and preserved by Joseph Smith and his contemporaries, including Oliver Cowdery’s 1834-5 essays on Church history (particularly Letter VII), Lucy Mack Smith’s history, recollections of David Whitmer, Parley P. Pratt and others, articles in various Church publications, and the teachings of the apostles and prophets through the years. Many of these are compiled here: https://www.mobom.org/byu-packet. Examples:

When Moroni first visited Joseph Smith, he told him that "the record is on a side hill on the Hill of Cumorah 3 miles from this place remove the Grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record under it laying on 4 pillars of cement."

Moroni "then proceeded and gave a general account of the promises made to the fathers, and also gave a history of the aborigenes of this country... He said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record."

In 1830, during the mission to the Lamanites as directed in D&C 28, 30 and 32, Oliver Cowdery told the Indians "This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County." 

Describing the hill with Joseph's assistance, Oliver wrote, "this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by. At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon (Mormon 6) you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah.... [Mormon] abridged from those records, in his own style and language, a short account of the more important and prominent items, from the days of Lehi to his own time, after which he deposited, as he says, on the 529th page, all the records in this same hill, Cumorah and after gave his small record to his son Moroni, who, as appears from the same, finished, after witnessing the extinction of his people as a nation. …

This hill, by the Jaredites, was called Ramah: by it, or around it pitched the famous army of Coriantumr their tents. 

2. The text of the Book of Mormon describes the setting and surrounding of the land of Cumorah and the hill Cumorah. These descriptions are vague enough to fit in many locations, including the terrain and location of the New York Cumorah.

3. Extrinsic evidence corroborates the teachings of the prophets about Cumorah. 

Numerous artifacts have been found in western New York that corroborate the scope of the final retreat and battles that Mormon describes. M2Cers have invented "requirements" for Cumorah to support their belief that the "real Cumorah" is in Mexico. For example, BYU Studies still features this table:


https://byustudies.byu.edu/further-study-chart/138-the-two-final-battles/

Although M2Cers claim 230,000 soldiers died at Cumorah, and 2 million Jaredites, that's not what the text tells us. 

The largest enumerated Nephite army was only 42,000, assembled after Mormon gathered the people “together in one body” (Mormon 2:7) in 330 AD. After many years of steady retreat and "a continual scene of wickedness and abominations," by 346 AD Mormon had an army of only 30,000. (Mormon 2:25). In 350 AD Mormon made a treaty with the Lamanites, but soon the carnage and retreat resumed, to the point that by 384 AD, they had gathered in all their people to the land of Cumorah (Mormon 6:6).  

In Mormon 6:6, Mormon says that, "from the top of the hill Cumorah," he and Moroni "beheld" or saw two units of ten thousand who had been "hewn down." This is obviously not a specific number, but a military unit, like a brigade or battalion.  

Then Mormon uses the imperative "behold" to draw our attention to all the other military units who had fallen during the decades-long, bloody retreat from Bountiful during Mormon’s life as a military leader.

Similarly, the Jaredite battle involved fewer than 10,000 men, based on the narrative in Ether 15:14-29. Imprecise reading of Ether has led to erroneous interpretations.

… when Coriantumr had recovered of his wounds, he began to remember the words which Ether had spoken unto him. He saw that there had been slain by the sword already nearly two millions of his people, and he began to sorrow in his heart; yea, there had been slain two millions of mighty men, and also their wives and their children. (Ether 15:1-2) 

These “two millions” died long before the battle at Ramah, which commenced over four years later. Coriantumr was reflecting on Ether’s prophecy of doom, seeing its fulfillment in the long history of wars documented in the text over 33+ generations. Similarly, in modern times, we say 1,000,000 U.S. military personnel have died in battle, considering those killed during the Civil War, the World Wars, Vietnam, etc. 

Two million Jaredite deaths over 33 generations is roughly 60,000 per generation, or around 2,000 per year on average.

_____