long ago ideas

“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Long ago, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery conquered false claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction or that it came through a stone in a hat. But these old claims have resurfaced in recent years. To conquer them again, we have to return to what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Wednesday, September 3, 2025

M2C, SITH, and de-correlating Joseph and Oliver

The ongoing "de-correlation" of what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon continues to pose problems. 

A recent Wall St. Journal story titled "‘Exmo’ Influencers Mount a TikTok War Against the Mormon Church" claims that these influencers "question some of the Book of Mormon’s claims, pointing to a lack of archaeological evidence, dissect leaders’ efforts to modernize, and share snapshots of the happier lives they find outside the church." 

https://www.wsj.com/tech/ex-mormon-tiktok-creators-e9a5b00e?mod=hp_lead_pos9

While several issues are discussed in the article, the article and comments refer to SITH and M2C, which are the focus of this blog.  

Think how different the conversation would be if faithful LDS influencers supported and corroborated what Joseph and Oliver taught instead of refuting and arguing against what they taught.

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One useful response to the article is here:

https://x.com/TeeplesCY/status/1963294345206825202

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The article juxtaposed images of two well-known influencers, the exmo Alyssa Grenfell and the faithful Latter-day Saint Jasmine Rappleye.



Jasmine is awesome. She promotes positive messages and gives faithful explanations. 

Except that she, too, has repudiated what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

Let's start with SITH (the stone-in-the-hat narrative).

Jasmine used Anthony Sweat's illustration of the 1834 Mormonism Unvailed SITH narrative to refute what Joseph and Oliver taught about the translation.

She's far from alone. 

Sweat's illustration of Mormonism Unvailed dominates the presentations by leading LDS scholars who, like Jasmine, reject what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Somehow, they have rationalized that promoting Mormonism Unvailed is a good idea. They are enthusiastic and happy about it. 

But for many Latter-day Saints, it is cringy to see these scholars smiling as they promote Mormonism Unvailed while they de-correlate what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Background. When critics such as the 1834 book Mormonism Unvailed claimed that (i) Joseph used a "peep stone" to produce the Book of Mormon without even referring to the plates, and that (ii) the Book of Mormon was fiction based on Solomon Spalding's book, Joseph and Oliver responded promptly, clearly, and specifically--in formal publications.

Their explanations were reiterated by their contemporaries and successors in Church leadership for decades. Their explanations are corroborated by extrinsic evidence.

But eventually certain RLDS and LDS scholars decided that Joseph and Oliver, either ignorantly or intentionally, misled everyone about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. For years, they have taught their theories to innumerable Latter-day Saint students, to the point that now, what Joseph and Oliver taught has vanished from Church curriculum, the Gospel Topics Essays, and the narratives promoted by even faithful social media influencers.

This opens the door for the exmo influencers and leaves Latter-day Saints confused.

Think how different the situation would be if instead every Latter-day Saint knew and believed what Joseph and Oliver taught and how they responded to the critics.

Origin of the Book of Mormon

Joseph and Oliver explicitly explained that Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.

Some examples.

Joseph Smith

Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon?

Answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon   was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.

Oliver Cowdery

He [Moroni] said this history was written and deposited not far from that place, and that it was our brother’s privilege, if obedient to the commandments of the Lord, to obtain and translate the same by the means of the Urim and Thummim, which were deposited for that purpose with the record.

Oliver Cowdery describes these events thus: “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated with the Urim and Thummim, or, as the Nephites would have said, ‘Interpreters,’ the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’

(Joseph Smith—History 1:71, Note, 1)

Modern scholars: 

Although Joseph and Oliver explicitly explained that Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates, they were wrong. Church members should not even know what they taught. Instead, Latter-day Saints should accept the scholarly theories.

Royal Skousen

"Joseph Smith’s claim that he used the Urim and Thummim is only partially true; and Oliver Cowdery’s statements that Joseph used the original instrument while he, Oliver, was the scribe appear to be intentionally misleading."

Gospel Topics Essay:

- omits everything in JS-H, Note 1 after "heaven" to censor what Oliver said about the Urim and Thummim

- omits everything Joseph and Oliver taught about the Urim and Thummim and instead falsely claims that (i) "Joseph Smith and his scribes wrote of two instruments used in translating the Book of Mormon" and (ii)"Joseph Smith and his associates often used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the single stone as well as the interpreters." 

Anthony Sweat:

Illustrates the Mormonism Unvailed narrative which becomes ubiquitous.


Gerrit Dirkmaat:

Promotes SITH by publishing an imaginary narrative about the 1829 Jonathan Hadley article on the first page of this book.

Rough Stone Rolling. The book Rough Stone Rolling promotes SITH with selective edits and omissions of original sources, as discussed here:

https://www.mobom.org/rsr-review

There are many more examples of scholars promoting SITH in the pages of the Interpreter, the FAIRLDS website, Meridian Magazine, etc., as well as in some faithful and exmo podcasts and other social media influencers.

Despite the efforts of the critics and faithful scholars to de-correlate them, the teachings of Joseph and Oliver are also available for everyone to see.

One compilation is here: https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

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Setting of the Book of Mormon

The question of Book of Mormon historicity was raised in Mormonism Unvailed, which promoted the Solomon Spalding theory (that Joseph and Sidney Rigdon produced the Book of Mormon by adapting a novel by Spalding, which Joseph then read from behind a curtain or "vail.")

Oliver Cowdery explicitly refuted the Spalding theory when he explained it was a fact that the hill Cumorah in New York is the same hill Cumorah/Ramah mentioned in the Book of Mormon. Oliver explained that Moroni told Joseph the history was "written and deposited not far from" Joseph's home near Palmyra. Oliver also explained that the repository of Nephite records was in the same hill, but in a separate location from Moroni's stone box. 

Anyone can read this in the Joseph Smith Papers and other sources, such as these:

http://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

https://www.mobom.org/cumorah-overview

We can all see that Joseph Smith learned the name of the hill directly from Moroni before he even got the plates, that he and his family referred to the hill by name before he translated the plates, that the messenger to whom Joseph gave the abridged plates before leaving Harmony went to Cumorah before bringing the plates of Nephi to Fayette, etc. 

This was all well-known during Joseph's lifetime, just like the Urim and Thummim narrative was.

But an RLDS scholar named L.E. Hills rejected the New York Cumorah and published a map in 1917 that became the basis for the Mesoamerican/Two-Cumorahs theory (M2C) that has been widely adopted by LDS scholars such as John Sorenson, Jack Welch, and Dan Peterson, which they have heavily promoted in their various publications.

These M2C scholars have successfully mainstreamed the narrative that Joseph and Oliver either ignorantly or deliberately misled everyone about the setting of the Book of Mormon, specifically the hill Cumorah/Ramah in New York.

Jasmine has heavily promoted M2C. Her followers are very familiar with her M2C beliefs.


Other prominent LDS scholars continue to promote the M2C narrative that Joseph and Oliver misled everyone about Cumorah.


The different approaches boil down to this:



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Think back to the Wall St. Journal article. 

Think how different the conversation would be if all the faithful LDS influencers supported and corroborated what Joseph and Oliver taught instead of refuting and arguing against what they taught.


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