Response to SITH video by Gospel Lessons
Joseph Smith's
Seer Stone
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=amGVHecmPA0
Introduction.
This is another ridiculous
attempt to promote SITH (the stone-in-the-hat theory) while ignoring what Joseph
Smith and Oliver Cowdery said. Regarding the Urim and Thummim, this video
claims at 3:50, "this is in fact not
how the process worked at all as many of us now know." What this video "knows" was promoted back in
1834 in the anti-Mormon book Mormonism Unvailed. Joseph and Oliver
refuted SITH multiple times, but now LDS intellectuals and critics alike have
revived it. Ignore them and stick with what Joseph and Oliver said.
At 5:47, the video says, "it isn't clear whether he [Moroni] also returned
the Urim and Thummim or not." But it's
crystal clear if you care what Joseph and Oliver said.
At 6:11, the video says, "in
other words joseph smith used the Urim and Thummim given him by moroni to
translate the 116 pages that are now lost and the rest of the book of mormon
the entire book of mormon that you have and you've read your entire life was
not translated using the urim and thummim but rather this other seer stone it
can be confusing because even joseph referred to these and other stones all as
Urim and Thummim or seer stones interchangeably.
He did no such thing and no one
has found such a claim. Instead, responding to this ridiculous SITH narrative,
Joseph emphasized that he translated the record by means of the Urim and
Thummim that came with the plates!
At 12:08, the video relates a
theory as a fact, the same way David Whitmer and the other SITH witnesses did.
"the gold plates needed to
be nearby but they were usually covered in a napkin while joseph would look at
the stone inside the hat and the words would appear on it and he would dictate
to a scribe while joseph and many others called this the translation
process"
This is an excellent example of
the way historians have simply adopted what the SITH witnesses said while
ignoring their competency, availability, and motives, not to mention the
context of the SITH statements (i.e., they were trying to refute the Spalding
theory). If some future historian comes across this video, it will become yet
another SITH “witness” even though the video is simply repeating hearsay while
stating it as a fact.
Next, at 12:22, the video says "it isn't a traditional translation because joseph
didn't know both reformed egyptian and english and looked at the characters and
determined the right words and phrases in english."
Except the video forgot to
mention JS-H:
immediately after my
arrival there [in Harmony, Pennsylvania] I commenced copying the characters off
the plates. I copied a considerable number of them, and by means of the Urim
and Thummim I translated some of them, which I did between the time I arrived
at the house of my wife’s father, in the month of December, and the February
following.
(Joseph Smith—History 1:62)
Here Joseph explains that he
began translating the characters as he copied them off the plates. He could not
have more explicitly explained that he was learning the meaning of the
characters. This may not be a “traditional translation” because he was using
the Urim and Thummim, but he was unambiguously studying the characters because
he copied them and translated them.
Then the video cites 2 Nephi
27:20.
12:42 for those who don't like
that this is the process used
It’s not a question of “liking”
or “not liking” SITH, it’s a question of what did Joseph and Oliver claim?
12:48 look at second nephi 27:20
which is nephi giving isaiah 29 so this is really isaiah speaking of the coming
forth of the book of mormon it says quote “then shall the lord god say unto him
the learned shall not read them for they have rejected them and i am able to do
my own work wherefore thou shalt read the words which i shall give unto thee.”
13:10 he didn't say he would
give him the ability to translate languages or have the scholarly education to translate
an ancient record he said that joseph would read the words god would give unto
him and that is exactly what happened
While this is a common
justification for SITH, the SITH sayers take this verse out of context. When
read in context, the passage obviously refers to the engravings on the plates,
which Joseph said he studied and translated. These are the words God gave to
Joseph to read and translate into English.
14 Wherefore, the Lord
God will proceed to bring forth the words of the book; and in the mouth
of as many witnesses as seemeth him good will he establish his word; and wo be
unto him that rejecteth the word of God!
15 But behold, it shall
come to pass that the Lord God shall say unto him to whom he shall deliver the
book: Take these words which are not sealed and deliver them to another,
that he may show them unto the learned, saying: Read this, I pray thee. And the
learned shall say: Bring hither the book, and I will read them.
16 And now, because of
the glory of the world and to get gain will they say this, and not for the
glory of God.
17 And the man shall
say: I cannot bring the book, for it is sealed.
18 Then shall the
learned say: I cannot read it.
19 Wherefore it shall
come to pass, that the Lord God will deliver again the book and the words
thereof to him that is not learned; and the man that is not learned shall say:
I am not learned.
20 Then shall the Lord
God say unto him: The learned shall not read them, for they have rejected them,
and I am able to do mine own work; wherefore thou shalt read the words which
I shall give unto thee.
21 Touch not the
things which are sealed, for I will bring them forth in mine own due time;
for I will show unto the children of men that I am able to do mine own work.
22 Wherefore, when thou
hast read the words which I have commanded thee, and obtained the witnesses
which I have promised unto thee, then shalt thou seal up the book again, and
hide it up unto me, that I may preserve the words which thou hast not read,
until I shall see fit in mine own wisdom to reveal all things unto the children
of men.
(2 Nephi 27:14–22)
If all Joseph did was read words
that appeared on a stone, there would be no point for the Lord to warn him not
to touch the sealed portion. Furthermore, the Lord preserved the words that
Joseph did not read by having Joseph hide up the record again (when he returned
the plates to the repository in Cumorah). The Lord would not have to “preserve”
the words Joseph didn’t read if he merely read words that appeared on a stone.
Moroni told Joseph he was called
to translate the plates. Revelations in the D&C reiterate that Joseph was
required to translate the engravings. Nowhere do the scriptures state, suggest
or imply that Joseph merely had to read words that appeared on a seer stone.
Next, the video relates some
speculation.
13:32 some might ask why he
didn't need the plates at all if he didn't need to look at them or use them in
any way look no one knows a hundred percent
Based on what Joseph and Oliver
said, we can know 100% that Joseph needed the plates because he was translating
the engravings on the plates.
13:40 but it does seem to me
that there needs to be a reference object or something there for the
transliteration process to work when moroni took the plates he still had the
brown stone but he couldn't transliterate
This is commonly referred to as
the talisman or ____ theory. I assume everyone can see the logical fallacy here,
as well as the factual fallacy. The video assumes Joseph did not possess the
Urim and Thummim after he lost the 116 pages, which is what David Whitmer said,
even though that contradicts what Joseph, Oliver, and Lucy Mack Smith reported.
14:01 shortly after the process
of transliteration of the book of Mormon was complete he gave the genesis [the
video claims the brown stone relates to the timing of the creation of the Earth]
seer stone to oliver cowdery while some wonder if the white stone was used
rather than this genesis stone and perhaps it was the fact that joseph gives
the stone to oliver who was the translator for all of the that portion of the
book of Mormon that the seer stone was used for it seems to indicate that it
was the brown stone
There’s a lot of thinking past
the sale here. Debating which “seer stone” Joseph used leads people to simply
assume that Joseph used a seer stone instead of the Urim and Thummim to
translate the plates. If (as I propose) Joseph used the brown stone purely for
demonstration purposes, he naturally would have given it to Oliver because he
didn’t need it any longer.
Recall that when Oliver rejoined
the Church and reiterated his testimony that Joseph translated the plates with
the Urim and Thummim, he possessed this brown seer stone but didn’t display it
or even mention it. This has led some LDS scholars to surmise that Oliver
deliberately misled everyone, but in my view, they have that backwards. Oliver
sought to correct the SITH rumors by reiterating what he and Joseph had always
said.
16:11 in summary i think the
seer stones are super cool between history scripture and the pure awesomeness
factor i don't know why anybody finds the use of special stones to be strange
or weird it all seems directly in line with how things have always been and
always will be
Yes, more and more Latter-day
Saints are reframing SITH as a feature, not a bug.
The SITH narrative shows us that
E.D. Howe (and Hurlburt, his source) knew what he was doing when he described
SITH in Mormonism Unvailed.
Let’s not forget that Joseph
knew what he was doing when he refuted SITH and said “Hurlburt and the Howes
are among the basest of mankind, and known to be such and yet the priests and
their coadjutors hail them as their best friends and publish their lies,
speaking of them in the highest terms.”
(Elders’ Journal I.4:59
¶12–60 ¶3)
Now, in our day, it is our own
LDS scholars who are publishing the Hurlburt/Howe lies.
_____
Summary:
To repeat, this video is another ridiculous effort to mainstream SITH
(the stone-in-the-hat theory). SITH was set out in the 1834 anti-Mormon book
Mormonism Unvailed. Joseph and Oliver refuted it multiple times by explaining
that Joseph translated the record by means of the Urim and Thummim that came
with the plates. This video ignores what Joseph and Oliver said in favor of
SITH sayers who repeated the Mormonism Unvailed narrative. It's easy to promote
SITH when you ignore what Joseph and Oliver said, but it's impossible to
promote SITH when you accept what they said.
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