Believing Joseph and Oliver

The recent interview with Ed Goble about the tactics of some well-known LDS scholars/apologists raises the question, why are some LDS scholars/apologists so defensive about their positions? Why do they resort to the tactics Ed described to attack fellow Latter-day Saints who disagree with their theories?

More basically, why do these LDS scholars/apologists resist collaborating on a simple, clear, accurate comparison of the various faithful interpretations of Church history, the scriptures, and the teachings of the prophets? 

It's a fascinating psychological case that we don't have time to explore deeply here, but we observe that there is a simple, clear and obvious dichotomy of belief among Latter-day Saints.

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The dichotomy:

Some of us still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

Some don't.

And that's fine. People can believe whatever they want to believe.

We can summarize it with examples in this table.

Joseph and Oliver	M2C and SITH
Responding to ongoing confusion about the translation, Joseph Smith answered the question  in the Elders Journal in 1838.	Responding to ongoing confusion about the translation, some modern LDS scholars/apologists reject what Joseph taught.
Joseph Smith: Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon? Answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon   was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon. (Elders’ Journal I.3:42 ¶20–43 ¶1) https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10	These LDS scholars/apologists claim that Joseph didn’t use the plates or the Nephite interpreters, which Joseph and Oliver referred to as the Urim and Thummim. Instead, they claim Joseph produced the Book of Mormon by reading words that appeared on a stone he put in a hat.
Responding to claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction, Oliver Cowdery answered the question in the Messenger and Advocate in 1835.	Responding to claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction, some modern LDS scholars/apologists say Oliver and Joseph were wrong about Cumorah because the “real Cumorah” is in southern Mexico.
Oliver Cowdery: I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by. At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed. By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon120 you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah… In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope or doubt.  https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90	According to these scholars/apologists, Oliver was an ignorant speculator who misled the Church when he wrote this declaration of fact.   How do they know this?   Because they have interpreted the text of the Book of Mormon as a Mayan codex that, according to them, means the events took place in Central America.   According to them, this makes New York too far away, so Oliver, Joseph, their contemporaries and successors must have been wrong all along.

For more references, go to https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

Ed Goble and FAIR MORMON (FAIR LDS)

A few months ago, I met Ed Goble, who was a co-author with Wayne May of the book This Land. We had a long lunch and follow-up discussions about various topics. Ed is thoughtful, smart, and curious, just a good guy with some important contributions.

He recently did an interview with Mormon Book Reviews about the origins of the ideas about a limited geography North American setting for the Book of Mormon, based on the New York Cumorah. He also explained his interactions with FAIR Mormon (now FAIR LDS).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb1HAuTbZPM 

At one point, Steve and Ed discussed the origin of some of the contention that existed historically between the M2Cers and what came to be known as the Heartlanders.

https://youtu.be/Gb1HAuTbZPM

This is interesting history that is probably not well known. It's also useful as a lesson about how to engage with people who have different opinions. 

There was a time years ago when LDS apologists were so adamant about their M2C theories that they developed a siege mentality that drove their rhetoric and tactics.

By now, most people (with the lingering exception of a handful of LDS apologists and anti-LDS critics) accept the concept of multiple working hypotheses. We're not yet at the point where everyone is willing to participate in a full comparison of alternatives, but we're getting closer.

Eventually, as more and more Latter-day Saints (and their critics) join the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding (nomorecontention.com), we'll eliminate any lingering contention altogether.

Then everyone will participate in a united effort to apply the FAITH model of analysis. We will all clearly identify the unambiguous Facts so that everyone can agree on what the facts are. The we will delineate the respective Assumptions and Inferences that lead people to their differing Theories, ultimately producing the overall worldviews or Hypotheses through which everyone sees the world.

That FAITH model enables everyone to make informed decisions with no sense of compulsion or animosity toward others.

"worth of the perusal of the Saints"

Many differences of opinion arise from a mismatch of knowledge. When people start a conversation by setting out the factual basis of a topic, they can usually reach a clear understanding of one another, pursuant to the FAITH model. 

They can pursue clarity, charity and understanding together in harmony, whether or not they end up with the same opinions.

Among Latter-day Saints, I find a wide gap in basic knowledge about Church history. Some of this is attributable to the efforts of certain scholars to "guide" Latter-day Saints by keeping them unaware of authentic, legitimate sources of Church history that contradict the popular modern narratives of SITH and M2C.

I posted an example here:

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/08/joseph-smith-papers-1831-conference.html  

1829: Joseph and Oliver discuss the Restoration
while on their way to meet David Whitmer

Voyage of the Phoenicia - Book of Mormon Central video

Book of Mormon Central (Scripture Central) released an outstanding interview with Boyd Tuttle about the voyage of the Phoenicia!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkFiuRuiQkM

Very cool to see Book of Mormon Central produce and release such an informative video.

Keep up the good work!

FAIR LDS conference this week $129.00

Tomorrow and Friday (Aug 8-9, 2024) you can attend the 2-day conference of FAIR for only $129.00.

https://whova.com/portal/registration/fairc_202311/

Or you can pay $69.00 for online access.

You get 18 sessions over 2 days. 

Or, you could spend $92 for the full week of BYU Education Week.

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I'm sure the FAIR conference will be awesome. You can see the agenda and speakers here:

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/2024fairvaliant

The title of the conference is "“FAIR and Valiant Voices: United in Faith.”

A theme of the conference seems to be "Fortifying Faith in Teens and Young Adults." That's an important topic in our day, for sure.

Because it is a FAIR conference, though, we know the speakers must comply with the SITH and M2C narratives whenever the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon comes up.

For example, in the FAIR "rebuttal" to the CES Letter, we read this:

"Joseph performed most of the translation in the open using the stone and the hat." 

https://www.fairlatterdaysaints.org/blog/2021/08/26/the-ces-letter-rebuttal-part-2

If you didn't know this was a FAIR publication, you'd think it was a quotation from John Dehlin. 

It's a strange methodology. The scholars at FAIR think they are "fortifying faith" when they teach that John Dehlin was correct while Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery were misleading everyone when they claimed that Joseph translated the plates by means of the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates.

It boils down to this:

FAIRLDS, the Interpreter, Scripture Central and John Dehlin

vs. 

Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery

Compare the FAIRLDS position with what Joseph Smith wrote when he responded to ongoing confusion about the translation:

Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon?

Answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon   was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.

(Elders’ Journal I.3:42 ¶20–43 ¶1)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/11

 

Update on apologists book

As readers here know, I've mentioned a few times my upcoming book on LDS apologists and critics. It's a work in progress because they keep giving me so much material. Besides all the blogs, videos and material from Scripture Central, the Interpreter, etc., people send me lots of background material. Just today I'm going through a new submission that is quite interesting. 

The book covers the origin and worldview of FARMS, FAIRMormon (aka FAIRLDS), the Interpreter, Book of Mormon Central, Scripture Central, etc. Obviously the Peter Pan episode, with its associated website and cast of characters, is a substantial chapter or two. We're discussing Mormon Stories, CES Letter, etc., and how both the faithful and critical organizations embrace M2C and SITH to promote their respective agendas.

One reason for the delay in publishing is that the dynamics of the apologist/critic world are changing. Some people are changing their views on M2C and SITH, for example. Obviously when people change their minds about M2C, SITH, and other topics, it is essential to be up-to-date. Some apologists and critics even switch sides, etc. I want to accurately represent everyone who is mentioned in the book. 

Mostly I'm using published material, but there are some interviews as well. We'll have some of the interlinear commentary on notable published material that people seem to enjoy.

I've always hoped that the book would be more historical in nature instead of contemporary, in the sense that I hope to see an eventual bifurcation such as this:

Faithful LDS rejecting M2C and SITH in favor of believing what Joseph and Oliver said.

Critics holding onto M2C and SITH because they reject what Joseph and Oliver said.

We'll see what happens in the next couple of months.

M2Cers at work

How to share the message

Google tells me this blog has had 171,320 views so far in July. Combined with my other blogs, that is over 200,000 views in July 2024 alone.

But that's still far fewer than the millions of people who are interested in the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

I've had many requests to do more social media, such as X, TikTok and Instagram, as well as more YouTube videos. I enjoy discussing these topics in person, in interviews, in presentations, and in writing. However, social media is time-consuming. I'm busy with many other important projects.

Readers email me with comments and questions. Some suggest new ideas and evidence, some point out typos and other corrections, and some relate their own experiences with other Latter-day Saints learning about the evidence that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery told the truth about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

This is an important message that every Latter-day Saint should be aware of. 

But many Latter-day Saints--probably most--remain unaware of both 

(i) what Joseph and Oliver actually taught and 

(ii) what scriptural, prophetic, and extrinsic evidence supports and corroborates what they taught.

It seems obvious to me and many others that, at a minimum, every Latter-day Saint should know what Joseph and Oliver taught. Ideally, they would also know about the corroborative evidence.

But others disagree.  

The elephant in the room is this:

For reasons we've discussed on this blog and elsewhere, prominent LDS scholars and their followers [e.g., the Interpreters and Scripture Central] teach that Joseph and Oliver were wrong about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon. 

These scholars work hard to promote their theories and interpretations, spending millions of dollars on social media, developing apps and publications, making movies, etc. 

[For those new to this blog, if Joseph and Oliver told the truth, then Cumorah/Ramah is in New York and Joseph used the Urim and Thummim that came with the plates to translate the engravings on the plates. IOW, there are not "two Cumorahs" (M2C) and Joseph didn't use a seer stone in the hat (SITH) to produce the text.]

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Evidently, there is a growing demand among Latter-day Saints for alternatives to the SITH and M2C narratives. People are tired of the disinformation that circulates about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

I posted an example here:

https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/2024/07/lucy-mack-smith-and-seer-stones.html

So what is the solution? 

How can the Later-day Saints learn what Joseph and Oliver taught, along with the corroborating evidence?

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Ideally, I'd like to see the prominent LDS scholars (and their donors and followers) embrace what Joseph and Oliver taught. But if they don't, that's fine, too. Everyone can believe whatever they want. Academic freedom, free agency, etc.

Here's what is not fine: these scholars who reject what Joseph and Oliver taught continue to ignore and defy basic academic ethics that should prompt them to at least inform their followers about what Joseph and Oliver taught and the associated corroborating evidence.

E.g., https://www.ldshistoricalnarratives.com/p/aha-historians-standards-of.html

For many years, these scholars and their organizations have declined repeated requests and efforts to collaborate on a comparative resource that would enable Latter-day Saints to employ the FAITH model in the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding to achieve "no more contention."

Facts. Everyone can agree on the actual facts.

Assumptions. Everyone can spell out the assumptions behind their respective interpretations.

Inferences. Everyone can explain the inferences they draw to fill in gaps in the evidence and assumptions.

Theories. Everyone can explain the theories they derive from their respective approaches.

Hypotheses. Everyone can clearly see the respective hypotheses that predict and frame other aspects of the Restoration.

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What do you think? Do you still think it is possible that prominent LDS scholars will someday host, contribute to, and/or encourage an accurate comparison of different faithful approaches to the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon?