long ago ideas

“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Long ago, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery conquered false claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction or that it came through a stone in a hat. But these old claims have resurfaced in recent years. To conquer them again, we have to return to what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Thursday, August 22, 2024

Believing Joseph and Oliver

The recent interview with Ed Goble about the tactics of some well-known LDS scholars/apologists raises the question, why are some LDS scholars/apologists so defensive about their positions? Why do they resort to the tactics Ed described to attack fellow Latter-day Saints who disagree with their theories?

More basically, why do these LDS scholars/apologists resist collaborating on a simple, clear, accurate comparison of the various faithful interpretations of Church history, the scriptures, and the teachings of the prophets? 

It's a fascinating psychological case that we don't have time to explore deeply here, but we observe that there is a simple, clear and obvious dichotomy of belief among Latter-day Saints.

_____

The dichotomy:

Some of us still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught about the origin and setting of the Book of Mormon.

Some don't.

And that's fine. People can believe whatever they want to believe.

We can summarize it with examples in this table.

Joseph and Oliver

M2C and SITH

Responding to ongoing confusion about the translation, Joseph Smith answered the question  in the Elders Journal in 1838.

Responding to ongoing confusion about the translation, some modern LDS scholars/apologists reject what Joseph taught.

Joseph Smith:

Question 4th. How, and where did you obtain the Book of Mormon?

Answer. Moroni, the person who deposited the plates, from whence the Book of Mormon   was translated, in a hill in Manchester, Ontario County, New York, being dead, and raised again therefrom, appeared unto me and told me where they were and gave me directions how to obtain them. I obtained them and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.

(Elders’ Journal I.3:42 ¶20–43 ¶1)

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10

These LDS scholars/apologists claim that Joseph didn’t use the plates or the Nephite interpreters, which Joseph and Oliver referred to as the Urim and Thummim. Instead, they claim Joseph produced the Book of Mormon by reading words that appeared on a stone he put in a hat.

Responding to claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction, Oliver Cowdery answered the question in the Messenger and Advocate in 1835.

Responding to claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction, some modern LDS scholars/apologists say Oliver and Joseph were wrong about Cumorah because the “real Cumorah” is in southern Mexico.

Oliver Cowdery: I think I am justified in saying that this is the highest hill for some distance round, and I am certain that its appearance, as it rises so suddenly from a plain on the north, must attract the notice of the traveller as he passes by.

At about one mile west rises another ridge of less height, running parallel with the former, leaving a beautiful vale between. The soil is of the first quality for the country, and under a state of cultivation, which gives a prospect at once imposing, when one reflects on the fact, that here, between these hills, the entire power and national strength of both the Jaredites and Nephites were destroyed.

By turning to the 529th and 530th pages of the book of Mormon120 you will read Mormon’s account of the last great struggle of his people, as they were encamped round this hill Cumorah… In this valley fell the remaining strength and pride of a once powerful people, the Nephites—once so highly favored of the Lord, but at that time in darkness, doomed to suffer extermination by the hand of their barbarous and uncivilized brethren. From the top of this hill, Mormon, with a few others, after the battle, gazed with horror upon the mangled remains of those who, the day before, were filled with anxiety, hope or doubt. 

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/history-1834-1836/90

According to these scholars/apologists, Oliver was an ignorant speculator who misled the Church when he wrote this declaration of fact.

 

How do they know this?

 

Because they have interpreted the text of the Book of Mormon as a Mayan codex that, according to them, means the events took place in Central America.

 

According to them, this makes New York too far away, so Oliver, Joseph, their contemporaries and successors must have been wrong all along.

 

 

For more references, go to https://www.mobom.org/church-history-issues

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