People often ask me why M2C persists. Recent comments on a YouTube video provide a good example of the depth of indoctrination that has enabled M2C to persist.
To be clear: If people want to believe M2C, that's fine with us.
Because on this blog we pursue clarity, charity and understanding, we're fine with people believing whatever they want. We just ask that they share the pursuit of clarity, charity and understanding.
We give people the benefit of the doubt and we focus on understanding one another. We don't seek conformity, compliance, groupthink, or even consensus.
We encourage everyone to make informed decisions for themselves.
This requires clarity, which most people avoid. Basic human psychology informs us that people will defend their beliefs beyond rationality because of bias confirmation, and that people will assuage their cognitive dissonance any way they can.
The pursuit of clarity requires us to point out thinking and factual errors, which we assume everyone wants to do.
Before discussing the YouTube comments, we can review some facts that everyone agrees upon, whether they are M2Cers, Heartlanders, nonliteralists, nonbelieving critics, etc.
- We can all see that early Church leaders taught that the hill in New York where Joseph obtained the plates is the hill Cumorah/Ramah.
- We can all see that M2C (the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory) originated with RLDS scholars Stebbins and Hills in the early 1900s.
- We can all see that LDS Apostle and Church historian, Joseph Fielding Smith, denounced the "two Cumorahs" theory at the time.
- We can all see that that no LDS Church leader has ever publicly embraced M2C or repudiated the New York Cumorah.
- We can all see that a handful of LDS scholars embraced M2C and promoted it, using their positions of influence at BYU and CES to indoctrinate thousands of BYU students.
- We can all see that Scripture Central (aka Book of Mormon Central) spends millions of dollars to promote M2C and persuade Latter-day Saints that the prophets were wrong about Cumorah.
- We can all see that there are dozens, if not hundreds, of theories of Book of Mormon geography, all claiming to be based on the scriptures and all claiming to be corroborated by extrinsic evidence (archaeology, anthropology, geology, geography, etc.).
- We can all see that the Gospel Topics entry on Book of Mormon geography takes no position on geography, except that it (i) declares the events took place in the "Americas" (a non-textual term) and (ii) makes no statement about Cumorah/Ramah.
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Below is the exchange on YouTube.
Original in blue, my comments in red.
From @bartibbagnes4605.
Oliver Cowdrey's personal opinion that the hill in New York is the Hill Cumorah in The Book Of Mormon is far from proof.
This is the same argument that critics make about everything claimed by Oliver (and Joseph, and the other witnesses to the plates); i.e., just because they said something was a fact doesn't constitute proof. It's a question of whether we believe or reject what they said.Obviously, people are free to accept or reject what Oliver and Joseph (and everyone else) said. But in this case, bartibbagnes4605 apparently believes some of what Oliver claimed, just not all of it.This requires us to assess his reasoning.He claims Oliver expressed a "personal opinion." We can't tell whether bartibbagnes4605 has read Oliver's declaration or is merely repeating what he's heard from others, so in the pursuit of clarity, we will look at what Oliver said.We assume bartibbagnes4605 is referring to Letter VII, one of eight essays Joseph wrote about the early history of the Church.
Throughout these letters, Oliver clearly distinguished between opinion and fact. He declared it's a fact that the final battles of the Nephites and Jaredites took place in the valley west of the hill Cumorah/Ramah in New York where Joseph obtained the plates. To reframe Oliver's statement of fact as his "personal opinion" rewrites history, denigrates Oliver's character, and undermines his credibility about everything else he states as a fact.And whether the plains of the Nephites or Lamanites, it was probably both.
Joseph identified Ohio, Indiana and Illinois as the "plains of the Nephites." bartibbagnes4605 argues that Joseph was wrong or incomplete, which is fine, but anyone can read the reference and make an informed decision. Joseph wrote,"wandering over the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionaly the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity."
https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/letter-to-emma-smith-4-june-1834/2
For not only did thousands of Nephites travel a great distance North up into the area of The United States of America, but the Lamanites traveled all over hunting down the Nephites, which would include up into the area of The United States of America, and Moroni traveled withersoever he could to avoid those Lamanites, even hundreds of miles.
This is incoherent because bartibbagnes4605 simply assumes the Nephites traveled northward from Central America.
He certainly didn't walk in a square mile circle around the place where all the Lamanites had gathered together to destroy the Nephites, that's just silly.
This is incoherent because no one suggests Moroni traveled in a square mile circle.ard from Central America
But the geology of the Heartland makes it impossible to be where The Book Of Mormon took place, the evidence of seismic activity just isn't there and never has been. You can't have an earthquake bigger than any other without any evidence of large earthquakes, let alone one that left the rocks in seams and cracks ever after, when there are no rocks, no seams and no cracks.
The New Madrid earthquakes left plenty of evidence, including the accounts of the people who lived through them.
And instead of the earthquake being worse in the North, the seismic activity is weaker farther North, the EXACT OPPOSITE of The Book Of Mormon.
New Madrid is in the land northward....
The Heartland will never fit as the place The Book Of Mormon took place, the Geologic history is all wrong. There's absolutely no possibility of geologists overlooking evidence of the earthquake described in The Book Of Mormon. No matter how the Heartlanders misinterpret a few quotes, they cannot make the Heartland fit the description given in The Book Of Mormon. They shouldn't let pride blind them from admitting their mistake and focusing their research where the local history is already lining up with The Book Of Mormon narrative. As is the geology, climate and cultural practices.
This word salad demonstrates this M2Cer's ignorance and cognitive dissonance.
Joseph asked Oliver to write those letters, and Oliver said they were written only with his help. And then Joseph had them published in four difference newspapers. And he asked that they be included in his own personal history. Joseph also wrote in the Wentworth letter- which letter he insisted be printed with no changes - " We are informed by these records that America in ancient times has been inhabited by two distinct races of people. The first were called Jaredites and came directly from the Tower of Babel. The second race came directly from the city of Jerusalem about six hundred years before Christ. They were principally Israelites of the descendants of Joseph. The Jaredites were destroyed about the time that the Israelites came from Jerusalem, who succeeded them in the inheritance of the country. The principal nation of the second race fell in battle towards the close of the fourth century. The remnant are the Indians that now inhabit this country. This book also tells us that our Savior made His appearance upon this continent after His Resurrection"
All good points.
That doesn't keep Oliver from inserting his own opinions.
Oliver clearly and carefully delineated his opinions from the facts he stated.
Or the printers.
Unclear what this means, but Oliver's essays were copied verbatim into Joseph's journal and republished verbatim by Joseph's brothers and others.
America is North and South America, but Columbus was prophesied in The Book Of Mormon that he would visit the descendants of the brothers of Nephi in the Promised Land, and he only visited Mesoamericans in Mesoamerica, from Honduras down to Panama.
The text never mentions Columbus. bartibbagnes4605 makes an assumption that the text refers to Columbus, but the text never says or implies that the person identified as the "man among the Gentiles" was the first one to cross the Atlantic. Columbus, Cabot, and others readily fit the description in the text.
12 And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.
13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.
(1 Nephi 13:12–13)
And Venezuela on his third voyage. Nowhere in the United States Of America, especially the Heartland. Now later explorers did go to the area that became the United States of America, but they could only fit those described in 1 Nephi 13: 13 "And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought on other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.", that one who visited the seed of Nephi's brethren could only be Christopher Columbus.
See above. Columbus is not the only one who fits the description. Besides, Heartlanders recognize that the descendants of Lehi migrated and spread out, even during Book of Mormon timeframes.
Now The Book Of Mormon does account for Nephites and Lamanites in the area of the United States Of America, for many Nephites traveled North an exceedingly great distance and settled, and Lamanites hunted down Nephites wherever they were. But unless They settled in Santa's Workshop, there's no place an exceedingly great distance North of the Heartland worth settling.
Bizarre rhetoric based on an assumption about how far a great distance is. The text does not explain how far distances were.
So not only does the geology of the Heartland not support The Book Of Mormon, the prophecies of The Book Of Mormon don't match the Heartland, and no twisting of Oliver Cowdrey's words or words attributed to Joseph Smith Jr. can change that.
M2Cers are the ones twisting the words of Joseph, Oliver, their contemporaries and successors, all of whom were specific, clear and unambiguous about the New York Cumorah/Ramah.
Earth changing earthquakes do not just disappear from geologic records, great mountains do not just disappear without a trace, and rocks found in seama and cracks ever after would not just cease to exist, making 3 Nephi look like a lie.
The New Madrid and other earthquakes have not disappeared; they are well attested.
Pretty sure on such an important subject Oliver would not have made such a declarative description on his own. And then that Joseph would have it reprinted in several other church papers. In fact, Oliver introduced his series of letters with this statement: “That our narrative may be correct, and particularly the introduction, it is proper to inform our patrons, that our brother J. SMITH Jr. has offered to assist us. Indeed, there are many items connected with the fore part of this subject that render his labor indispensable. With his labor and with authentic documents now in our possession, we hope to render this a pleasing and agreeable narrative, well worth the examination and perusal of the Saints. To do justice to this subject will require time and space: we therefore ask the forbearance of our readers, assuring them that it shall be founded upon facts.” Joseph asked that this account of the location of the last battle be inserted into his personal history. And of course Joseph backed that up with his definitive statement in the Wentworth letter. Not to mention his letter to Emma describing “wandering over the the plains of the Nephites, recounting occasionally the history of the Book of Mormon, roving over the mounds of that once beloved people of the Lord, picking up their skulls & their bones, as a proof of its divine authenticity.” And saying he was shown in vision that the bones of the person whose skeleton they found was a white Lamanite. That his name was Zelph, a warrior and chieftain under the great prophet Onandagus, “who was known from the Hill Cumorah, or eastern sea to the Rocky mountains.. . .. He was killed in battle by the arrow found among his ribs, during the last great struggle of the Lamanites and Nephites.” (History of the Church Vol. 2: 79-80, June 3, 1834, 1948 edition) . No questions but that the remaining Lamanites, and even some Nephites, later moved southward and now have descendants all over those lands. I don’t find anywhere in the Book of Mormon or elsewhere, that said Columbus, obviously the man referred to by Nephi, had to land in New York. In fact, landing on either North or South America would have led to more people to come to all of the Western hemisphere. And the description of the white multitudes that settled the followed, killing many Lamanites, and then fighting off their “mother Gentiles” obviously refers to those in North America who fought off the British (I Nephi 13:13-19). I often ask myself why we see masses of people leaving what some insist is the “promised land,” now streaming into North America. Everyone is free to have their own interpretations of all this. I prefer to believe Joseph.
Good point--the M2Cers have difficulty with clarity because they have repudiated what Joseph and Oliver taught.
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; You overlooked several facts.
This is an ironic argument because as we'll see, bartibbagnes4605 doesn't cite facts at all, but he's been indoctrinated to think these are facts.
As editor of the Times And Seasons Joseph Smith Jr. himself crossed out Hill Cumorah on the publishers manuscript before publication.
bartibbagnes4605 should provide a link to this because not even the Joseph Smith Papers have found pre-publication material for the Times and Seasons, let alone any "publishers manuscript."
Joseph Smith Jr. never referred to the hill in New York as Cumorah.
Obviously, we can't know what Joseph said throughout his life, so this claim is not factual.
We have no documents in his handwriting prior to April 1829 when he wrote a brief passage on the Original Manuscript. His handwriting is clear and precise, showing that he had experience writing. But none of his writing has survived. The next piece of writing is his 1832 history. We have a copy of a letter he wrote to Oliver Cowdery in 1829. Several revelations were recorded.
Despite the lack of original materials from Joseph himself, we have the accounts of people to whom he spoke, including Lucy Mack Smith and Oliver Cowdery (see below).
In 1842, Joseph wrote D&C 128:20 in which he corroborates the other accounts that it was Moroni who identified the hill as Cumorah even before Joseph obtained the plates.
M2Cers claim Joseph merely adopted a false tradition about Cumorah. They also claim that everyone else who related the New York Cumorah was wrong and thereby misled the Church (and the world).E.g., Moroni told Joseph the first night they met that "the record is on a side hill on the Hill of Cumorah 3 miles from this place remove the Grass and moss and you will find a large flat stone pry that up and you will find the record under it laying on 4 pillars of cement— then the angel left him""This Book, which contained these things, was hid in the earth by Moroni, in a hill called by him, Cumorah, which hill is now in the State of New York, near the village of Palmyra, in Ontario County.
Autobiography of Parley P. Pratt, page 58 of Chapter VIII.
People can decide for themselves which narrative they want to believe.
And of course they were the plains of the Nephites or Lamanites, depending on the conflicting accounts,
There are no conflicting accounts. This was Joseph's own writing.
some making no mention of the Hill Cumorah,
References?
which makes sense since Joseph Smith Jr. crossed it out as wrong, because he never said it,
References?
but of course they were the plains of the Nephites, thousands had traveled an exceedingly great distance North and settled in the area of the United States Of America, and of course when the Lamanites were hunting down Nephites they would travel into the area of the United States Of America after the Nephites.
This reflects the M2C understanding, not a fact, but obviously traveling north is possible from south, central, and north America.
The warrior Zelph was buried at a time when there were no Lamanites or Nephites or any other kind of ites, or any wars, at least not where The Book Of Mormon was taking place, Zelph proves that there were still Nephites and Lamanites outside of Mesoamerica where The Book Of Mormon took place, and wars also.
This isn't what Woodruff and others recorded, so it's not a factual characterization of what Joseph said but merely what bartonbagnes4605 wishes Joseph had said. The actual references are available here:https://www.mobom.org/zelph-account
Obviously the great peace was much shorter outside of the area directly covered in The Book Of Mormon.
Saying something is "obvious" does not make it a fact.
There have never been any large earthquakes in the Heartland,
This is not only not a fact, but contradicts the facts. New Madrid fault, for example.
no great mountains or any mountains where they put the Nephites either, you have to go to Lamanite territory to even find mountains, and at less than 7,000 feet, they are far short of great mountains.
These are not facts but subjective interpretations.
Compare D&C 117:8, which refers to "mountains" in Missouri. "Is there not room enough on the mountains of Adam-ondi-Ahman, and on the plains of Olaha Shinehah, or the land where Adam dwelt."
And you have to travel South, well into Lamanite territory or beyond, before you have major earthquakes, the exact opposite of what 3 Nephi says, that the destruction was greater in the North.
The New Madrid fault is in the land Northward in the Heartland model, so it aligns with 3 Nephi.
The Heartland has fewer and smaller earthquakes the farther North you go.
Not factual.
And then there's the problem of snakes on the Narrow Neck Of Land, they can't stop people from passing for years when they would be so far North in the Heartland model that they would have to hibernate several months each year, and wouldn't be able to stop anyone from traveling North, not to mention people could just go around the other sides the "seas" (lakes to shallow to have depths). And where exactly were these snakes chasing the people and livestock from, the North Pole?
Presumably he's referring to the serpents (not snakes) in Ether 9, but Ether 9 never mentions the narrow neck of land. All the text says is that the flocks fled towards the land southward, which the Nephites called Zarahemla. How far they went is unspecified. Southward from where is also unspecified. These are all relative terms that are too vague to identify specifically. Ether 10:20 (the only reference in the text to the narrow neck of land) occurs generations after Ether 9.
That would require the snakes to be even farther North, where it's even colder, way too cold for snakes anytime of year. And if you look at a map of the United States of America and Canada at night, it is dark North of the Great Lakes, because there is no place suitable for thousands of Nephites to settle, especially an exceedingly great distance North.
Presumably he means Jaredites, not Nephites, but none of this makes sense anyway.
NOTHING about the Heartland fits The Book Of Mormon geologically, which is why no Scholars even consider it. You cannot change geology with misinterpreted quotes.
Obviously pure rhetoric, not factual.
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