long ago ideas

“When we are tired, we are attacked by ideas we conquered long ago." - Friedrich Nietzsche. Long ago, Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery conquered false claims that the Book of Mormon was fiction or that it came through a stone in a hat. But these old claims have resurfaced in recent years. To conquer them again, we have to return to what Joseph and Oliver taught.

Friday, September 27, 2024

SITH in federal court

[Note: originally posted at https://funwithsith.blogspot.com/2024/09/sith-in-federal-court.html.]

SITH (the "stone-in-the-hat" narrative about the translation that refutes what Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery always said about the translation), is now being litigated at the appellate level in federal court.

As if SITH wasn't bad enough from a purely historical perspective.

https://www.sltrib.com/religion/2024/09/25/lds-tithing-church-lawyers-push/

(click to enlarge)

The media often uses this photo of the "seer stone" that doesn't match the description Emma and David gave, and can't be the one that Wilford Woodruff claimed was the Urim and Thummim in Nauvoo anyway (assuming the narrative that this is the one Oliver Cowdery had is true, which is questionable given the poor chain of custody). 

Notice the caption under the image: "(Rick Bowmer | The Associated Press) A picture of the "seer stone," shown in 2015, that Latter-day Saints believe church founder Joseph Smith used to help translate the Book of Mormon."

The caption doesn't reflect that there are at least a few Latter-day Saints who still believe what Joseph and Oliver taught, such as Joseph's statement here:

I obtained them [the plates] and the Urim and Thummim with them, by the means of which I translated the plates and thus came the Book of Mormon.

https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/elders-journal-july-1838/10

Neither Joseph nor Oliver ever once said or implied that Joseph used a seer stone.

And yet, in federal court, the Church's own lawyer questioned what Joseph and Oliver said:

“Isn’t that a bizarre thing to say?” the church’s lead lawyer said of the plaintiffs. “They say specifically, ‘We don’t dispute that the Book of Mormon is true. We don’t dispute that it was translated by the gift and power of God. We dispute whether it was translated using the Urim and Thummim, a clear stone or an opaque stone.

“That almost sounds silly,” he continued. “Churches have the right to define, develop and evolve their own history. ... Who knows what happened in 1820 or whether he sat at a table and looked at gold plates?

Think how different this would all be if LDS scholars had stuck with what Joseph and Oliver (and their successors in Church leadership) had said. 

But instead, the scholars decided Mormonism Unvailed, David Whitmer, and Emma's dubious "Last Testimony" have more credibility than Joseph and Oliver.

For a discussion of the SITH problem, see


The whole thing is an absurd mess, partly because of Rough Stone Rolling and John Dehlin's "Faith Crisis Report" that led to the Gospel Topics Essay on Book of Mormon Translation which doesn't even quote what Joseph and Oliver said.

And of course we have the famous scholars at Scripture Central and the Interpreter continuing to promote the SITH nonsense.

More later...


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