Fun M2C paranoia on MormonDialog.org

M2Cers are typically paranoid about any direct comparisons between M2C and the Heartland models of Book of Mormon geography. They have reason to be. 

Direct comparisons expose their basic belief that the prophets were wrong about the New York Cumorah. Comparisons also expose the way they manipulate the text to find "correspondences" to Mayan culture that every actual Mayan expert knows are illusory, if not delusional. 

Not that there's anything wrong with that, of course. People can believe whatever they want.

But of all the M2Cers, the ones who run MormonDialog are among the most paranoid of all. 

People have been sending me links to this page:

https://www.mormondialogue.org/topic/74908-bom-geography-theory-survey/page/3/

(I'll post some choice excerpts below because the moderators there have a habit of deleting posts they don't like.)

The M2Cers apparently think that anyone who posts about Heartland on their site must be me in disguise, using another name(s).

And yet, I haven't posted anything there in years, either in my name or another name.

What the M2Cers don't realize is that Latter-day Saints around the world are discovering the logical and factual fallacies that underly the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory. They're speaking up on social media.

Only an M2Cer would think this is threatening. Heartlanders are happy for people to explore multiple working hypotheses and make informed decisions, but that approach is anathema to M2Cers.

M2Cers need to get ready. They should start by re-examining the premises behind M2C itself.

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Sample posts from some of the anonymous, paranoid clowns at Mormondialog:

Hamba Tuhan

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Posted Tuesday at 07:39 PM (edited)

  On 11/28/2022 at 3:41 PM, OGHoosier said:

I am sorry to have brought this upon you 

They're back ...

Or perhaps I should have written 'he'?

I note that the various blogs linked to by our one-post drive-bys are all the work of a single man: jonathan3d, who claims on one of his 36(!) blogs that 'the Gospel Topics Essays, the Saints book, Book of Mormon Central, and the Ensign openly teach things that, in past generations, were taught only by critics and apostates'.

Edited Tuesday at 08:05 PM by Hamba Tuhan

1

 
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Calm

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Posted Wednesday at 03:53 AM (edited)

  On 12/6/2022 at 7:39 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

They're back ...

Or perhaps I should have written 'he'?

I note that the various blogs linked to by our one-post drive-bys are all the work of a single man: jonathan3d, who claims on one of his 36(!) blogs that 'the Gospel Topics Essays, the Saints book, Book of Mormon Central, and the Ensign openly teach things that, in past generations, were taught only by critics and apostates'.

It is Jonathan Neville (his picture is in the “about” section and see one here https://interpreterfoundation.org/author/jonathann/ ) though the style is his from what I remember and he is known for prolific posting in this topic, so I was pretty sure even before I checked.  My guess is the posters are all him, but I suppose he could have persuaded some friends to come along with him. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:31 AM by Calm

Even their "Senior Admin" is anonymous, which makes sense because of his paranoia.

Nemesis

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Posted Wednesday at 10:52 AM

Just fyi all the heart lander supporters in this thread were 1 person with about 12 sock puppets I had to kill.  
 

Nemesis

Hamba Tuhan

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Posted Thursday at 01:26 AM

  On 12/7/2022 at 10:52 AM, Nemesis said:

Just fyi all the heart lander supporters in this thread were 1 person with about 12 sock puppets I had to kill.

Ha! I was right. 

This hat says it all

 

Narrative Poisoning

I have a section in my upcoming book (The Rational Restoration) on "narrative poisoning." 

While I favor the approach of multiple working hypotheses, the implications of each hypothesis must be recognized as people make informed decisions.

The concept of narrative poisoning goes like this.

Certain LDS scholars adopted a narrative about Book of Mormon geography (the limited Mesoamerican setting invented by L.E. Hills in the early 1900s, aka the Mesoamerican/two-Cumorahs theory, or M2C).

Why did they do this?

Because they honestly (and not unreasonably) believed M2C would help demonstrate the historicity of the Book of Mormon. They thought Joseph Smith taught that Mayan ruins in Central America were Nephite ruins because of anonymous editorials in the 1842 Times and Seasons, so they ran with it. They rationalized that a Mesoamerican setting precluded a New York Cumorah, so therefore the "real Cumorah" must be somewhere in Mexico. 

This includes BYU professors such as John Sorenson, Jack Welch, and Dan Peterson, as well as non-BYU people such as Scott Gordon and Kirk Magleby. All great guys, faithful Latter-day Saints, with good intentions and lots of support and encouragement from their students, readers, followers, and even some Church leaders. 

The problem is, they had to repudiate the teachings of the prophets about the New York Cumorah to make M2C work.

[see maps below]

The M2C narrative thereby poisoned LDS intellectual thought in four ways (at least).

1. The M2C narrative--that Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery ignorantly speculated about Book of Mormon geography and were wrong about Cumorah--opened the door to questioning other things they claimed as facts.

2. The M2C narrative established the principle that the "informed opinions" of credentialed intellectuals superseded the "uninformed opinions" of prophets.

3. The M2C narrative employs sophistry to repudiate not only the teachings of Joseph and Oliver about Cumorah, but also the plain declarations of both (i) their closest associates, including Lucy Mack Smith, David Whitmer, Martin Harris, Brigham Young, Heber C. Kimball, Wilford Woodruff and others, and (ii) their successors including members of the First Presidency speaking in General Conference.

4. The M2C narrative became so deeply entrenched in LDS thought that it gave rise to the citation cartel (FARMS, then Book of Mormon Central and the Interpreter, along with FAIRLDS). The M2C logo (see below) poisons innumerable books, videos, articles, and other media. The citation cartel enforces M2C to the point that now, few Latter-day Saints even know what the prophets have taught about Cumorah and many LDS "can't unsee" Mesoamerica in the Book of Mormon. This cognitive rigidity plagues Latter-day Saints and facilitates attacks by critics.   

The M2C narrative poisoning seeped out of the geography context into other corners of Church history, prompting LDS intellectuals to challenge the claims of Joseph and Oliver regarding the translation itself.

Thus we end up with the recent embrace of SITH (the stone-in-the-hat theory) that repudiates what Joseph and Oliver taught about the translation. Instead of learning what Joseph and Oliver taught, LDS students and converts learn what David Whitmer and Mormonism Unvailed taught.

These twin narratives--M2C and SITH--have poisoned the faith of many Latter-day Saints, who, sadly ignorant of the teachings of the prophets and how the evidence corroborates those teachings, easily succumb to the arguments of the critics who are delighted to amplify the poisonous narratives of M2C and SITH. 

Is there an antidote to this narrative poisoning?

The answer is obvious. 

Simply return to the simple, clear truths taught by Joseph and Oliver about Cumorah and the translation of the plates.

_____

The M2C logo depicts a Mayan glyph to represent the Book of Mormon.

The M2C logo subliminally poisons everyone who watches the popular Come Follow Me Insights program, which Book of Mormon Central spends millions of dollars to produce and promote.

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The history of M2C maps

L.E. Hills map, circa 1917

BYU Studies/Welch/Sorenson map, circa 1980s to present

BYU/Taylor Halverson and Tyler Griffin map, circa 2015 to present

https://www.millennialstar.org/lds-perspectives-47-recreating-the-book-of-mormon-world-taylor-halverson-and-tyler-griffin/

Seminary and Institute map, circa 2000 to present

Come Follow Me for November 28–December 4 Nahum; Habakkuk; Zephaniah

Last Sunday's lesson covered Nahum, Habakkuk and Zephaniah. Because we were traveling, we listened to a podcast of the Tyler and Taylor show from Book of Mormon Central. 

Always fun to see their ridiculous M2C logo, featuring a Mayan glyph to represent the Book of Mormon. 

There were two points in these books relevant to Book of Mormon geography/historicity. Naturally, Tyler and Taylor didn't mention them, but we shouldn't overlook these points.

_____

In Nahum, we learn about the original (ancient Hebrew) word translated into English as "sea." The term "sea" is used 302 times in the KJV Old Testament to translate a variety Hebrew words referring to various bodies of water.

This is significant because the Book of Mormon uses the English term "sea" 95 times. Most people (particularly M2Cers) simply assume it refers only to oceans. That's not unreasonable, but it's only one of multiple working hypotheses. 

Other readers (including me) think the term can refer to a variety of bodies of water, including oceans, large lakes, and mighty rivers--just as it does in the KJV Old Testament.

The Hebrew word used in Nahum 3:8, translated as "sea" in the KJV, is yam. You can see it in Strong's Concordance here:

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/3220.htm

6 of a mighty river, the Nile Nahum 3:8 (twice in verse); Isaiah 19:5 ("" נָהָר); compare הַתַּנִּין אֲשֶׁר בַּיָּם Isaiah 27:1 and כַּתַּנִּים בַּיַּמִּים Ezekiel 32:2 (simile of Pharaoh); of Euphrates Isaiah 21:1; Jeremiah 51:36 (according to Che Gf and others; Isaiah 21:1 perhaps better of Persian Gulf, see Di).

In Nahum 3:8, the term "sea" actually means "a mighty river," in this case the Nile River.

The KJV verse refers to "No" which is Thebes, near Luxor, and which is far from any oceans and even far from the Mediterranean and Red Seas.

Alternative translations make the meaning a little clearer:

https://biblehub.com/nahum/3-8.htm

The bottom line here is that the term "sea" in the Book of Mormon may refer at times to "a mighty river," just like the term "sea" does in Nahum.

Thus, the "west sea south" (Alma 53:8) can refer to the Mississippi River, as I discussed in Moroni's America and other places.

This interpretation not only correlates with Nahum and Isaiah, but the lower Mississippi River as the "west sea south" fits the overall geographical descriptions in the text.

_____

Zephaniah 3 deserves an entire article, but in the interest of time, I'll mention just a few things.

Zephaniah 3:10 references Isaiah 18:1. These are the only two verses in the Bible that use this phrase.

From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia my suppliants, even the daughter of my dispersed, shall bring mine offering. (Zephaniah 3:10)

Woe [i.e., hail] to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Ethiopia: (Isaiah 18:1)

Zephaniah explained that the faithful from "beyond the rivers of Ethiopia" would bring the Lord's offering. [See D&C ] 

The place "beyond the rivers of Ethiopia" is the land of the Nephites and the land of the Restoration, as we've discussed before.

http://bookofmormonconsensus.blogspot.com/2016/02/isaiah-on-lehis-route-to-america.html

and

https://www.bookofmormoncentralamerica.com/2017/03/the-land-shadowing-with-wings.html 

This is one way we can tell that Lehi traveled around Africa and across the Atlantic Ocean to the New World, as we depict in the Lemurs book.

(click to enlarge)

Alternative translations of Zephaniah make the meaning a little more clear.

New Living Translation
My scattered people who live beyond the rivers of Ethiopia will come to present their offerings.

Amplified Bible
“From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, [the descendants of] My dispersed ones, Will bring My offerings.

Two additional notes.

Zephaniah 3:14 says "Sing, O daughter of Zion." Moroni invoked that term in Moroni 10:31: "put on thy beautiful garments, O daughter of Zion." This is the only reference in the latter-day scriptures to "O daughter of Zion." (2 other references in the Book of Mormon quote Isaiah 52:2 "O captive daughter of Zion").

D&C 82 further links the passage to the land of the Restoration:

13 For I have consecrated the land of Kirtland in mine own due time for the benefit of the saints of the Most High, and for a stake to Zion.

14 For Zion must increase in beauty, and in holiness; her borders must be enlarged; her stakes must be strengthened; yea, verily I say unto you, Zion must arise and put on her beautiful garments.

(Doctrine and Covenants 82:13–14)

Other passages in Zephaniah refer to the gathering, the restoration, and "my holy mountain," all of which are significant to our day.

One Christian commentator interprets this chapter to the "Promise of Restoration."

https://enduringword.com/bible-commentary/zephaniah-3/

Here's what the Come Follow Me lesson offers:

Zephaniah 3:14–20

The Lord will rejoice with His people in Zion.

• To help class members find hope for the future in Zephaniah 3:14–20, you could write on the board “Be glad and rejoice with all the heart” because … Then class members could search these verses for blessings promised for the future that can help them rejoice today. How do these promises help us during difficult times?

 

My editorial in our local newspaper:

https://www.newportnewstimes.com/opinion/no-global-collapse-looming/article_12f09e9e-6ab1-11ed-a863-df1a425a762a.html

I was responding to this previous editorial:

https://www.newportnewstimes.com/opinion/global-collapse-is-looming/article_450db130-65f9-11ed-ba69-b3a040deffb1.html

Text of my article:

No global collapse looming

Nov 25, 2022 

Some people claim we face imminent societal and environmental collapse, but such false alarmism is destructive for young people who fear for their future. While there are problems in the world (as there always have been), the facts are that the world has never been more prosperous, safe, healthy, and (except for Ukraine) peaceful. As a former university teacher of environmental science and an international traveler, I speak from experience and education.

Everyone needs to recognize that the mainstream media (except the Newport News-Times) and television news shows profit only when they keep viewers/readers in a state of perpetual worry and anxiety by sensationalizing bad news. Their job is to make every problem in the world your problem. 

In reality, data from NASA and other scientific groups around the world shows that the planet is greening. Increased CO2 in the atmosphere promotes plant growth, which is why greenhouses pump extra CO2 inside. There is more forestland in the United States now than there was 100 years ago. Fishery and wildlife management maintain healthy populations of species. Pollution of all types has been drastically reduced thanks to market economics, consumer choices, and wise, prudent regulation. 

Outside the U.S., similar improvements are occurring. Take China as an example. I worked in China over 20 years ago. In 2019, my wife and I accepted teaching positions at a university in Nanjing, China. The improvements over the 20 years since I had worked there were amazing. The environment was much cleaner; all of the two-wheeled vehicles in the city were electric, as well as public buses and subways and many of the cars. The people throughout China are far more prosperous and happy, with better health and education, than they were 20 years ago. We've seen similar improvements as we've traveled to India, Vietnam, Laos, and other countries. We have also lived in Africa, spent time in most countries of Latin America, Europe and Asia, and everywhere we go the story is the same: cleaner and healthier environment, improving education, health, and prosperity, and more freedom.

My wife and I have also done substitute teaching in the Lincoln County School District. Many young people are alarmed by what they've been told by the media and other influencers, leaving some of the students feeling as though they have no future because "global collapse is looming."

That narrative is simply not true.

Those of us who have lived long enough to see the very real improvements and the advancements in technology that promise even better times ahead owe it to the rising generation to tell them the truth and share the optimism that they deserve — optimism that will help them continue to make the world a better place for all of us, humans and all living creatures, to live in.

Jonathan Neville is a resident of Waldport.